Citation XLS

[thatpilotguy]

My employer is looking at the Citation XLS. Can anyone of you guys or gals out there give me the down and dirty info on the XLS? I would like real world opearating information. Any maintance issues, performance problems, weird quirks...just the inside scoop on what I can expect from day to day operation. Thanks!

 

[T-DOGGIN]

What kind of mission?

Average payload vs average distance

 

[thatpilotguy]

50/50 business and personal. Average flight time is 1 to 1.5, we typically fill the seats available. And average about 150 lbs max of bags. Most of our pax's are below 170lbs. We currently operate a Beechjet and it works well, cabin space and baggage room are an issue. Fuel stops are the norm on long legs. What can you tell me about the XL or XLS? I'm looking for the "word on the street" kind of info. The sales folks are more than pleased to supply you with colorful brochures, but I'm not sure how "real life" the numbers are. In addition, do you see any regular maintenace issues?

 

[mswan]

I don't have any personal opinions nor am I a pilot, but here are some quotes from Business & Commercial Aviation April 2004:

"Ideally, the XLS would have had a fourth DU1080, dedicated to EICAS functions, and dual MCDUs with radio tuning functions. This configuration would have enabled Cessna to re-organize the cockpit to the latest ergonomic standards, in B/CA's opinion. Such large-scale changes, however, also would have considerably raised the nonrecurring engineering cost and development time, thus increasing the selling price to customers.

"Operators who complained about the Excel's two-position horizontal stabilizer, single-wheel main landing gear that's proned to hydroplaning and thrust reverser tail buffet will find the XLS offers no changes to these systems."

Unless you buy a position for premium, be prepared to wait a long time for a new XLS, lead times might be into 2007.

Just trying to help.

 

[bman]

Caveat Emptor

You'll like the Cabin in comparison to the beechjet,The thing climbs like a banshee, will get all the way up to 410 @ Max gross and has a massive baggage compartment. That's the good. The bad- When you max out the pax the range suffers big time,the ride in turbulence is not good, and very low VMO/MMO. The ugly-the two postion tail is a poor design as is most of the aero design quality (52 VG's 22 BLE's yikes!!!) Poor flight guidence intergration when tracking an ILS, large number of maint issues in an airframe that has been around for a decade (APU's starter/gen probs) and lack of fit and finish (the paint was peeling off after 25 hours of operation).



If you are gonna buy one DO NOT bring that thing home until you are completely satisfied it operates the way it is supposed to (try the ILS 1R@ ICT and hold on)!

Overall it is not a bad airplane and would seem to suit your mission. Personally I would perfer a really great used 650 (same cabin, faster, more range, less glass, but less issues too) if runway length isn't an issue

Regards
Bman

 

[thatpilotguy]

Thanks for the info Bman. I think the finial decision will be between the XLS and the 800XP. I personally think the 800XP is a better airplane, but I am concerned about it's lack of baggage space. Range not being an issue and all. The lack of fit and finish in the XLS was visable on a demo aircraft with 83 hours. I appreciate the info. You mentioned maint. issues...what have you seen? Thanks for the info!

 

[LJ45]

Learjet 45XR

Look at the 45XR ...fly at FL450, 460 true on 1250 lbs per hour total.

great numbers and sold airframe....

 

[T-DOGGIN]

We have been operating a 03 XL for 8 months now and I have nothing bad to tell you. For your mission it sounds like the perfect AC. Great cabin, awsome t-off landing performance and yes it does climb like a bat out of hell. Typical burns on 2 hour missions under 3000# equal to our Cit 2 but 2 to 3 tenths faster. You can fill the cabin and go 2-3 hours no problem. Over 3 hours and you start to loose pax. As far as MX no problems yet besides the APU (it's too much for this AC we have to turn off the bleeds to talk on the radios on the ground) we have already replaced the bleed air valve due to a sequencing problem. Besides that great airplane. Any other questions PM me and i will give you more info.

 

[bman]

You asked about MX probs?

Well it has them. I would say like any other new airplane, but this really isn't a NEW airplane.
The APU- some operators were getting a operational life of less than 25 hrs out of theirs. The generators seem to either not be ventilated porperly or need to be grounded better cause they are burnning up.

The Paint was peeling where the heated leading edge meets painted surface of the wing. The selant was peeling off and taking the paint with it after less than 30hrs of operation.

we've replaced Av/ Cooling fan within a week of operation.

The Flight guidence systems integration is not good. This airplane cannot capture a short range nav signal with out blowing thru the course by 1/2 a dot to 1 dot. The on the verticle Glide path side it will typically abruptly lurch up to capture the GP then start a sin wave like descent that get larger the closer u get to the deck (apparently this only is on some operators AC). Most report some oscillation on a GS.

Those are some of the things we've had go wrong in six months of operation of a brand spankin new AC

I don't know what the other guy was talking about when he mentioned three hours before you have to start losing fuel for pax.
Max fuel@ 6800 lbs
Typical BOW 13000 lbs
Max take-off 20100 lbs
leave @ 300lbs for peeps and stuff!!

Plan about 16-1800 the first
14-1600 the second
11-1400 the third

Fill all nine seats and you ain't getting no where close to three hours out of this bird with any kind of reserve. Especially if you are comming out of the north east and you are down low for extended periods of time.

Based on your post that's not much of a concern.

Seriously it is not a bad airplane, Certainly not for the money & there's a service center with 300 miles of everywhere. It seems based on what you've said that it will fit your missions perfectly. Just want to pass on one experience.

 

[T-DOGGIN]

BMAN

Here is how I got those numbers.

8 pax at 170 (who is really gonna sit in the Lav)= 1360lbs
2 crew at 200 = 400 lbs
he said baggage at =150lbs
Empty weight = 12400 thats ours and it is loaded

That gives you 14310 - 20400 for the XLS leaves 6090 in fuel.

Burns 1700 1st hour
1400 2nd hour
1300 3rd hour
4400 lbs for 3 hours
These burns are a bit higer than actual at 40 and above

Gives you 1690 reserve we typically use 2000 but can go as low as 1200.

So with the info posted it will do 3 hours with reserve (of course how much reserve needed depends on weather and the pilots)

 

[Lead Sled]

Citation XLS ???

Just wondering...
Does the XLS mean "X (as in Citation X) Low Speed"?

'Sled

 

[yfly]

I have been flying a XL for 2 years now. I will say it is the first Citation I would recommend to someone. Previous experience has been with SII's and 650's. The XL does/did have an APU generator problem. We have had generators quit in under 4 hours. That problem has been corrected by service bulletin that will limit the amps the apu gen delivers during main engine start. Apparently the old system asked too much from the generator and was cooking itself.
Other than that it is a good airplane. Fast climber. Fast to accelerate to its rather low Vmo of .75. Decent range with 2 people, any more and fuel is being left in the truck. I agree with the avionics problems of the other posters. As far as fit and finish, this has been a problem since the first Citation came off the line in 1974(?). These are Chevys not Hondas. Its quantity not quality.