Citation X Upgrade Time

[421Driver]

What sort of times do insurance co's look for to fly left or right seat in a CE750? Any restrictions, such as flying with an experienced operator for x hours, 1000 jet, B744 Presidential Pilot?

 

[h25b]

Depends on how much you want to pay for the policy. ANYONE is insurable at a price...

I would say for a reasonable rate you'd be looking at:

5000 TT
2500 MULTI
1000 PIC JET
PREFERABLE 100-200 IN TYPE

Anyone would insist on FlightSafety or Simuflight training as well... There are many other factors that can increase/reduce these times. For example, my first corporate job was with a Fortune 500 operator flying 3 Hawker 800's and I was hired with NO jet time and about 1200 TT. But the insurance looked the other way due to the size of the operation, safety record, the fact I was going to be attending FlightSafety Initial w/type rating, etc...

 

[Lead Sled]

What sort of times do insurance co's look for to fly left or right seat in a CE750? Any restrictions, such as flying with an experienced operator for x hours, 1000 jet, B744 Presidential Pilot?

Many factors enter into it. Is the airplane going to flown commerically or part 91?

We are a small, single-airplane, two-pilot, part 91 operation and we just changed our policy and got the following open pilot warranties:
PIC - ATP, type-rated, successfully passed a type-specific motion based simulator training program within the previous 12 months. 3500 total flying hours, including 2000 hours multi-engine, 1000 hours turboprop or turbofan, and 100 hours make and model.
SIC - ATP, type-rated, successfully passed a type-specific motion based simulator training program within the previous 12 months. 3000 total flying hours, including 1500 hours multi-engine, and 50 hours make and model.

I would imagine that our open pilot warranties are pretty common. However, I didn't even try to negotiate anything different - should we ever need to find part-time crewmembers, we won't have any problems finding guys who meet those standards. I did have to negotiate with the insurance company to list the other pilot that I fly with. He doesn't quite have the total time listed for the SIC open pilot warranty, but there was no problem getting him listed, by name, as a PIC.

Later this year we're planning on stepping up to a large jet. Neither one of us have flown a couple of the types that we are considering. We've discussed this with the insurance people and they say no problem - we'll just have to attend FlightSafety or Simuflite and we'll be good to go.

The bottom line is that you'll need to get some quotes and see what they're will to accept. Remember, it's not the FAA who determines who cam fly what - it's the insurance companies.

'Sled

 

[Diesel]

50hrs time in type and i'm released.

Problem is i'll get that 50hrs in a week and a half.

 

[PseudoName]

I had two guys in my CE750 initial that got released after getting 3 bounces with a FSI instructor in the right seat and the official nod.

Both guys came out of a Hawker.

 

[some_dude]

My first flight in a Falcon 50, neither of us had been in the airplane before, we were both straight out of the sim.

I had two guys in my CE750 initial that got released after getting 3 bounces with a FSI instructor in the right seat and the official nod.

Both guys came out of a Hawker.

 

[HMR]

My first flight in a Falcon 50, neither of us had been in the airplane before, we were both straight out of the sim.

How did that go? We might find ouselves in a similar situation in the 50.

 

[Lead Sled]

My first flight in a Falcon 50, neither of us had been in the airplane before, we were both straight out of the sim.

I did that once... "Hey, once we figure out how to open the door we'll be able to fly off in this thing."

'Sled

 

[some_dude]

My big problem was the nosewheel steering pin. When it's pulled, it has a place it stows on the nosegear, and to an idiot like me, it looked just like part of the gear. I was looking all over the airplane for it!

I finally gave up and when the line service guy showed up to pull it out of the hangar and fuel it, he hooked it up (without my saying anything, thankfully!)

The 50 is a very easy airplane to operate, HMR. You won't have any problem.

I did that once... "Hey, once we figure out how to open the door we'll be able to fly off in this thing."

'Sled

 

[Gulfstream 200]

How did that go? We might find ouselves in a similar situation in the 50.

I ditto the response about the 50 being VERY easy to fly. You will have no problem.

 

[G100driver]

I ditto the response about the 50 being VERY easy to fly. You will have no problem.

Why of course mesoir<sp>, it was designed that way.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Here is the problem. Letting the insurance people tell you who you can and cannot hire is silly. The insurnce people who tell you "we will not insure that person" should be fired. You've done your research and know who you want to hire, and now the insurance is going to tell you no. Aren't you paying them (insurance) to work for you? Don't they get a hefty part of your premium? The ones that cant get those things approved are simply poor insurance brokers. There is a young guy in Kansas City, 24 or 25, and he has an excellent relationship with the underwriters (that's the key). Not that I agree with this, but he got a Challenger operator approved to have an open SIC policy of NO SCHOOL and just a commercial pilots cert. The Challenger is being operated part 135 and 91. The SICs are CFIs that come from a local flight school. The PIC has less than 300 hours in the CL60, and probably had less than 200 Time in Type when he got this policy instituted. At the end of the day, its how hard the broker is willing to woork with the underwriters.

 

[G100driver]

Here is the problem. Letting the insurance people tell you who you can and cannot hire is silly. The insurnce people who tell you "we will not insure that person" should be fired. You've done your research and know who you want to hire, and now the insurance is going to tell you no. Aren't you paying them (insurance) to work for you? Don't they get a hefty part of your premium? The ones that cant get those things approved are simply poor insurance brokers. There is a young guy in Kansas City, 24 or 25, and he has an excellent relationship with the underwriters (that's the key). Not that I agree with this, but he got a Challenger operator approved to have an open SIC policy of NO SCHOOL and just a commercial pilots cert. The Challenger is being operated part 135 and 91. The SICs are CFIs that come from a local flight school. The PIC has less than 300 hours in the CL60, and probably had less than 200 Time in Type when he got this policy instituted. At the end of the day, its how hard the broker is willing to woork with the underwriters.

Reason number 10,000,001 why 135 in the US is almost completely crooked. The POI is in cahoots with the operator on this one. Is it going to take another crash of an airplane that is operated 135 for the FAA to clean up this mess of untrained, non-typed pilots flying $10 million pieces of equiptment?

 

[HawkerF/O]

Reason number 10,000,001 why 135 in the US is almost completely crooked. The POI is in cahoots with the operator on this one. Is it going to take another crash of an airplane that is operated 135 for the FAA to clean up this mess of untrained, non-typed pilots flying $10 million pieces of equiptment?

Roger that! I couldnt agree more.

 

[PseudoName]

but he got a Challenger operator approved to have an open SIC policy of NO SCHOOL and just a commercial pilots cert. The Challenger is being operated part 135 and 91. The SICs are CFIs that come from a local flight school. The PIC has less than 300 hours in the CL60, and probably had less than 200 Time in Type when he got this policy instituted. At the end of the day, its how hard the broker is willing to woork with the underwriters.

How can you be a Part 135 SIC without going to school and taking a checkride? There is no way that the MCI FSDO would give a Part 135 checkride to a CFI with no time in type, right??? Please tell me so!!

With a Captain that has low time and an SIC with even less, how are they getting charter flights. It seems that most brokers are requiring both pilots to meet Wyvern standards.

 

[G100driver]

It is very simple. You have a POI who has signed off in house training and has also signed off on having an in-house check airman. Simple and as scary as that. I see it happen all the time.

135/91 operators are there are full of goofballs that think that they can do it better an cheaper. I have learned over the past few years that they are all full of $hit and to operate an airplane properly it take money ... lots of it. No buck ... no buck rodgers.

 

[G100driver]

As far as Wyvern goes ... unless the customer is savy, the broker does not care. Remember 98% of brokers are warts on a hogs ass. They own nothing and care only about themselves.

 

[HawkerF/O]

How can you be a Part 135 SIC without going to school and taking a checkride? There is no way that the MCI FSDO would give a Part 135 checkride to a CFI with no time in type, right??? Please tell me so!!

FSDO made the SIC a PPE in the Challenger. If there is ever trouble that requires lawyers to get involved, and they find out the PIC went to the broker for the specific purpose of NOT having the SIC to go to school, hang on, cause the underwriter is going to write the check and walk away, leaving the operator to assume the rest of the liability.

With a Captain that has low time and an SIC with even less, how are they getting charter flights. It seems that most brokers are requiring both pilots to meet Wyvern standards.

You are missing the point. G100 is right, what does the broker care? He is just the middle man. It's the underwriter that assumes the liability. If there is ever litigation, the broker is just a witness at most. It's about EGOs. PIC does not want the principles to see that someone else is capable of flying the airplane. Funny though, the PIC goes to FSI every 6 months of course. He gets his training but Shi*s on the SICs keeping them from approved training, thus making them worthless in the open job market. Low rent and bottom feeding. I can assure you they are not doing supplemental lift for fortune 500s, so when Jon Smith calls needing a Challenger to impress his friends and ego, he just assumes that all is on the up and up and everyone is qualified. Doubh he would even know to ask the right questions.

 

[G100driver]

Hawker F/O, are you in the Washington area?