Citation VII

[400A]

Does anyone out there have access to Citation VII performance charts? Need to know my options for operating off a 6300ft strip at 6300 msl. 85 degrees.

Any VII drivers have any comments on the VII and its hot and high perf. ,,,, ops. in general? I understand the VI to be a little weak. is that true?

 

[Majik]

I don't have the charts but from a quick cheat sheet I show your max t/o weight at that temp/field elevation/rwy length would be approx 19,000lbs and a 2nd segment net climb grad of 2.3. Assuming a BOW of about 14,350, that gives you 4,650 lbs for fuel and pax. You can assume a 2,500lbs/hr burn rate for the 1st hr of flt. Don't forget 1500 lbs of reserve fuel.
Hope that helps.

 

[501261]

6300' @ 6300’ must be going out of Jackson (JAC), don't forget to put on some Bubba's catering for the ride home!

Realistically if they plan on leaving after 11AM in the summer just plan on making a fuel stop. At 86 degrees you can only go for little over an hour. Obviously the VII with 731-4R-2C’s will perform a little better than the VI. But at 86’ with a 6300’ @ 6300’ you’ll be very limited, so much so that the difference between the VI and VII isn’t enough to worry about. However at a more normal 80 degrees the VII can go about 200 nm more.

And sorry I don’t have the books with me for the exact numbers, I'll be eating Bubbas for another week.

 

[2000flyer]

You can assume a 2,500lbs/hr burn rate for the 1st hr of flt.

2500# first hour?!? I'm not doubting you, just surprised. The DA2000 only burns 2200# the first hour.

2000Flyer

 

[400A]

destination

Actually, it is RTN, Raton New Mexico. If you are ever in there, have Fern make you a sandwich,, lots of chilies, YUM!!!

Do you like flying the VII? ,,, Reliable?

 

[400A]

2000

Actually, we plan on looking at falcons in 2 years, VII seems to really fit our mission for now though.. our budget is high 5's to low 6's, and the a/c has to be less than 10 years old. Dont really like the looks of the 800A's numbers and dont think we will get to an XP. 2000's still going in mid teens.

 

[2000flyer]

Re: 2000

Actually, we plan on looking at falcons in 2 years, VII seems to really fit our mission for now though.. our budget is high 5's to low 6's, and the a/c has to be less than 10 years old. Dont really like the looks of the 800A's numbers and dont think we will get to an XP. 2000's still going in mid teens.

You're correct in the prices. Most used 2000's are hovering in the $16M ranges. One, a 1996 model with ~3500 hours on it was on the market for $14.75M, but I think it's sold.

I'd be surprised if you see a 2000 out there for much less than $16M. I think they may have bottomed out for now. All depends on the economy.

I was recently in LIT and there is a 2000EX (Collins equipped) with November 2003 delivery date for sale at $24.95M.

I've seen a few NJA 2000's on the market, but I don't know if they're for sale or lease. My understanding is that the warranty has run out and thats when they put them on the market.

2000Flyer

 

[banned username 2]

2500# first hour?!? I'm not doubting you, just surprised. The DA2000 only burns 2200# the first hour.

2000Flyer

The best I have done in the Falcon 50EX first hour is 2,390 lbs., and that is on THREE engines! (Climbed at 280/.78 to FL430 and cruised at .80). If I remember right in the Citation III we used to figure 2,000 lbs for the first hour.

 

[501261]

Re: 2000

Actually, we plan on looking at falcons in 2 years, VII seems to really fit our mission for now though.. our budget is high 5's to low 6's, and the a/c has to be less than 10 years old. Dont really like the looks of the 800A's numbers and dont think we will get to an XP. 2000's still going in mid teens.

We looked into the C650 series 3 years ago and rejected it; Mostly for the maintenance issues and SB's. Of course VII's were still going for $7-9M at the time (man, am I glad we didn't get one- the one we looked into sold for $1.5M less than we were going to pay for it 11 months later)!

Having said that, if the VII fits the profile, a nicely maintained one is a really nice airplane.

However, if you ask me the best value right now for the $6M and under category is the LR60. The LR60 is certainly a better high, hot, and heavy airplane than the C650. The cabin isn’t as big, so if you’re routinely carrying more than 5 pax, the VII would prevail.

 

[400A]

60

We looked at the 60 but its landing distances quickly turned us away since we do alot of FAR 135 work. It is very powerful but really needs a new wing. VREF is often in the 130's. Not enough brakes in my opinion.

By the way, I am shocked at the 50EX fuel burn. that is the second time I have heard that, how much more does a regular 50 burn?

The Maint. cost is why I am lllllooking at the VII and not the Hawker. I have been told by operators that low time airplanes are not so costly. The one we are looking at is a 96 model with 2500TT

 

[banned username 2]

Re: 60

By the way, I am shocked at the 50EX fuel burn. that is the second time I have heard that, how much more does a regular 50 burn?

The regular 50 burns about 8% more fuel than the 50EX, plus it is slower and doesn't go as high.

That 2,390 lbs. the first hour is the best I have done. More typical first hour burns when fairly light are around 2,650-2,750 lbs and when heavy are right around 3,000 lbs.

 

[2000flyer]

The best I have done in the Falcon 50EX first hour is 2,390 lbs., and that is on THREE engines! (Climbed at 280/.78 to FL430 and cruised at .80). If I remember right in the Citation III we used to figure 2,000 lbs for the first hour.

Our typical climb profile is 260/.73 to FL410/430. Unless it's ISA+, climb is usually around 30 minutes and we accelerate to .82/.83. LRC is .80. 1st hour is 2200+/- 50#s. 2nd is 1650 or so. Third and subsequent can be as low as 1450 if we step to 450.

The 2000EX won't be as thrifty, but they have more fuel to play with.

BTW Falcon Capt., next time in TEB FSI, jump in the 900EX EASy sim. I have seen the future, and it is EASy!!!

2000Flyer

 

[banned username 2]

BTW Falcon Capt., next time in TEB FSI, jump in the 900EX EASy sim. I have seen the future, and it is EASy!!!

The 900EX EASy sim is there??? I was out there at the end of May and saw the procedures trainer device thingy in that one room... I am heading to recurrent later this month, I'll have to take a look.

 

[2000flyer]

The 900EX EASy sim is there??? I was out there at the end of May and saw the procedures trainer device thingy in that one room... I am heading to recurrent later this month, I'll have to take a look.

Falcon,

Yes, the sim is in place. Just as you walk down the hall to the sim bays, it's the first on the right.

They were still loading software and aligning the visuals, but the system is there. Honeywell is having software problems that are delaying certification. FSI and FAA won't certify the sim until the aircraft is certified.

I'm not sure of your procedure in the 50EX/900EX for fuel transfer, but in the 2000 it's 1-XBP rotary...open; 2- XTK...low side; 3- Boost pump...off low side. In the 900EASy, push the button in the direction you want the fuel to flow and you're done. XBP/XTK functions are automatic. Open the fuel system page and watch the respective valves/pumps do their thing!

The only overhead toggle switches you have are GEN/BAT switches, maybe landing lights too. All others are push button. Even the fire control panel. Engine start on the 900EASy is as simple as throttle out of cutoff, start selector switch to start (a spring loaded switch just above the throttles). You'll still have the old push buttons on the overhead as well.

The CCD is absolutely amazing. Flight plan entry is a whiz (I say that as an EASy neophite, though I believe it will be very easy to become comfortable with). I do think there is going to be a new level of CRM involved with this system. You can easily get lost in all the menus available to the crew.

I'm tellin' ya man, it's a must see. Can't wait for the 2000EX EASy to get here

2000Flyer

 

[banned username 2]

I'm not sure of your procedure in the 50EX/900EX for fuel transfer, but in the 2000 it's 1-XBP rotary...open; 2- XTK...low side; 3- Boost pump...off low side. In the 900EASy, push the button in the direction you want the fuel to flow and you're done. XBP/XTK functions are automatic. Open the fuel system page and watch the respective valves/pumps do their thing!

That is the same procedure for the 900EX, the 50EX has a different fuel system.

The EASy sounds like a neat system... Can't wait to see how it works!

 

[2000flyer]

What is crazy is they're (FSI) trying to make the 2000EASy and 900EASy and common type rating (sans Airbus)!!!

2000 to 2000EX (Collins) differences is 1-1/2 days. However, if you're getting a 2000EASy, it's a 19-day initial! Hopefully the 900EASy program will work out the bugs and they'll come up with a shorter transition program for current 2000 typed crews to obtain the type.

2000Flyer

 

[banned username 2]

What is crazy is they're (FSI) trying to make the 2000EASy and 900EASy and common type rating (sans Airbus)!!!

Leave it to FSI!

Are you guys in line for a 2000EX? I haven't looked into that airplane much but it looks like it might be a nice replacement for our 50EX's when the time comes. But who knows, I'm not paid enough to make those kinds of decisions!

 

[400A]

SUBJECT

what happened to Citation VII info,, seems to have turned in to a falcon board.

 

[banned username 2]

Re: SUBJECT

what happened to Citation VII info,, seems to have turned in to a falcon board.

Looked like the info you were looking for was already posted.

 

[bigD]

what happened to Citation VII info,, seems to have turned in to a falcon board.

Personally, I'm surprised it hasn't already turned into a discussion about BBQ!