Citation Type

[LXApilot]

Guys-
I've been getting a lot of work as a copilot on the Citation II and V lately and have been making quite a bit of money at it these past few months. My trouble is that I am having trouble logging all the flight time and it looks like the flying is going to keep steady... do you guys think that this justifies me going out and getting the type rating and such so that I can log the time as PIC and there won't be any questions? So far the first 20 hours I've logged as dual recieved from an ATP (also a flight safety international instructor) because it was training for his company procedures in his company aircraft. Since the three landings and single engine maneuvers, it's all been logged as SIC Part 91 as per 61.55 ... I guess what I am asking is, what would you guys do if this was your situation? Get the type rating? or keep on crossing your fingers as a copilot?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

keep flying, do a good job, ...and THEY will type YOU!

 

[2000flyer]

I second Gulfstream 200's post.

2000Flyer

 

[capt_zman]

Keep the cash in the bank. Now, if ever, is not the right time to blow 12-15k for a citation type rating.

 

[MMO 0.705]

why does it lead to questions?
if its part 91 no one signs for the airplane and it poses no problem. If its 135 its another story. Also, why does everyone always take for granted that someone wants to go the airlines? What if this guy wants to stay corporate? Airlines would probably question it but I dont think it would be as questioned in the corporate world. Well, thats my .02 cents.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

It does not look out of place to log PIC time in a Citation with 750 hours.

And Yes, who says the guy wants to go to the airlines? who cares what they think....all they will do is furlough you anyways....

 

[501261]

Sorry to be short but I'm in a hurry.

1. Don't buy the type now, maybe combining it with the ATP down the road if your employer doesn't pay for it.

2. Learn the airplane and the FAR's.

3. According to the AFM on a C550 (assuming this is a C550, not C551) under minimum flight crew it states that you need at least a PIC and SIC. In other words all you time is legitimate C550 SIC time.

4. Since you are a required crew member you can log SIC time under 61.51.

5. Unless the PIC has a current MEI and specifically logged it as Duel you did NOT get Duel. What you received was an SIC checkout under 61.55.

6. Read 61.55 since it appears that you received all the SIC training required under 61.55b1 you are a fully qualified SIC under 91 on a C550. Note that the "duel received" is not actually duel; it is simply SIC time according to 61.55f. In addition the PIC does not need an ATP or MEI to complete an SIC checkout, he is simply acting as a PIC with an SIC.

7. For you own sake make sure you have documented all the training and studying you did to comply with 61.55b.

8. Make sure you are not undercutting the competition and making the going rate for C550 SIC ($250ish). You are a REQUIRED Crew Member, not helping a friend out.

Congratulations, the Citations are the best possible airplane to learn how to fly a jet in (since it’s only a nearjet ).

 

[LXApilot]

550 flying

I have gotten a lot of replies from you guys, and I really appreciate all of the excellent advice you more experienced guys give! It really helps, and it's always good to get other input. I'll answer a few of the questions you guys have here, and then ask a few more of my own:

1) The airlines? I grew up in a family where my father went from corporate pilot to regionals to major airlines. He is currently Captain on the 757/767 for a major US airline. He flew up the ladder from the General Aviation world to the airline business. He has gotten very lucky, because he has never been involved in being furloughed, laid off, or a strike... I also grew up reading Airline Pilot magazine and listening to my Father talk about the business. He gave me an amazing opportunity to see the line pilot's perspective, and I grew up knowing that this is what I wanted from my career. However, due to the unfortunate state of the airline industry these days, I feel like my dream of sitting in the cockpit at the same company on the same equipment might be a little unrealistic. My father's corporate roots have always been a constant reminder to me that there are more ways than one to end up with a career flying for a living. I've been very lucky to meet some of the right people and get a few good breaks early on in this game.

2) 750 hours might seem a little pittance, but the truth is... in that 750 hours I've flown as many airplane types as I could get my hands on. I flew corporate in High School for a major law firm in my home town, and I used every cent I ever had to pay for more flight training. I've logged over 500 hours cross country in that time and over 200 hours night and over 100 actual instrument. Now that I am SIC in the Citation, I want to gain knowledge / experience as quickly as I can and make the right moves so that I can move over to the left seat some day! A 750 hour pilot that spent his whole career flying around the patch might not be able to handle PIC in an airplane like that, but I'd like to think that my past experience / determination has molded me into a pilot capable of such a feat.

3) Corporate? I have made some decisions lately, and the biggest one being that I am determined to make a career for myself in the corporate world. I like the versatility and exciting opportunities that Corporate flying provides, and I think that corporate flying offers the best opportunities in the world for someone like me who wants to do their best and fly jets professionally. The problem is breaking into the industry and making a name for yourself. Especially in a place like this, Atlanta, where there are already so many established and entrenched professionals that are seeking the same jobs as I am.

4) The Best Advice? A very experienced and wise corporate captain I flew with once told me ; "don't let anyone short change you for your service kid. Your licence says Commercial Pilot, and that means you are a professional. If I ever hear of you flying with someone for free, then you will never fly with me again. If someone needs a copilot then they should treat you like one. It's a tough job, and you deserve your expenses being paid; ie. meals, hotels, etc. and you should get a little money too. Depends on the equipment and your qualifications, but be reasonable." I take that to heart, and I think I am getting paid fairly on the Citations I am flying. I get paid $200 a day as copilot for one company I am flying contract copilot for, and $150 a day for the other. Pretty good if you ask me, but let me know if I should be asking for more. They also pay for my meals and hotels, etc.

I just want to become a professional in the corporate world so that I can give back a little bit of everything the aviation world has ever given me. It's tough to know what to do in these uncertain times, but you guys advice really helps. But if anyone can explain the way I should be logging this I would greatly appreciate it, and should the Captain I flew with initially sign my logbook or not? I guess I should be asking an FAR specialist!?!

 

[MMO 0.705]

with regard to pay.....
If you are not typed then 150-200 is good. However, once you get typed you can ask for 250-300 or so for co-pilot. If you have more hours than we do, then you can ask for 350-400 to act as captain. To CYA, I would advise you to make some kind of a not in your logbook for the 61.5? SIC check. It says stuff like doing a single engine landing, knowing the airplane systems, etc. It would be good to have someone document that. Just in case. However, you are perfectly legal to log SIC cause you accomplished the things said in that FAR.