Citation III vs VII ???

[P3-Adub]

Any Citation III or VII pilots out there ? Was wondering what the basic differences are ? Such as 731-3 vs 731-4 ?, weights, systems differences, range, high and hot performance, apu advantages and disadvantages ?, typical gross wt. field length requirements sea level and 5,000' ?, how does second segment climb look compared to other comparable size jets ?, any gotchas ? Also, any experience with Flightsafety vs Simuflite for initial, how long and costs ?

Looking at adding one to our flight dept. possibly and don't know much about them. Thought some actual experience vs sales literature would be helpful.

Thanks in advance !

 

[King Nothing]

What's your mission profile? If you want to go into the mountains on a hot summer day forget it. They just don't perform very well high and hot. Of course having an APU does provide a bit of an advantage in that you can turn the engine bleeds off and run the packs off the APU, however, that APU adds 900lbs to the aircraft. The VII comes from the factory with the APU but most III's didn't.

If you're running from DPA to TEB three to four times a month, either plane is great for that. If you're running down to Florida from say Chicago, again, you're doing great, however, you have to keep in mind how many pax's and garbage you're putting into the plane. I would have to say the best part of the 650 series is that huge baggage compartment. Going from say the Hawker or Citation II, you'll love it. No more arguing with the VP's about their bags in the isle.

KN

 

[mense]

If your looking into getting a different airplane, I would suggest a Citation Excel. I'm sure there are many on the market. They mostly have apu's, you can burn them airborn. Large baggage, Go straight to 450. We go everywhere in ours. Just my 2 cents.

good luck
mense

 

[CIII flyer]

I've only been flying the CIII for about 6 months, but I'll tell you what I know. First and foremost, the III is a pig for High and Hot! Other than that it's a pretty good airplane. Even in the summer with warm temps upstairs you can climb right to 390 and top out around .80. Cooler weather you can routinely see .83, ,84. The VII is supposed to be much better for high and hot. I've been told the VII is where Cessna got it right. The systems are mostly the same with minor differences, from what I remember (when I did my type on the III, there was a VII guy in class who got differences). The VII also has an updated avionics package. It's still a 5 tube EFIS, but with the SPZ 8000. I think the max gross on the VII is 22k, which is the highest you can get in the III (some models are less). There are vast differences in APU's for the III. Some are airborne, some are not. Most have a hydraulic pump. Some have guages for turbine and ITT indication's, and others don't.

These are CIII numbers with 731-3C engines:

Sea level, 22K lbs., 20 deg. C, flaps 20, bleed's on, Rwy required- 5406
5000', 22K lbs., 20 degrees C, flaps 7 (20 not available), bleed's on, Rwy required- 8538.

Hope this helps!

 

[banned username 2]

These are CIII numbers with 731-3C engines:

Sea level, 22K lbs., 20 deg. C, flaps 20, bleed's on, Rwy required- 5406
5000', 22K lbs., 20 degrees C, flaps 7 (20 not available), bleed's on, Rwy required- 8538.

This is exactly why we sold our Citation III's and got Falcon 50EX's

 

[CIII flyer]

I heard the other day there's something like 50 Falcon 50's on the market right now, so you might get a good deal.

 

[P3-Adub]

Thanks for the info, I have been doing some research myself and found that there is a big thrust difference in the -4 on the Citation VII. We already have a mach .73 Citation V and therfore an Excel is not much of an improvement other than physical space, correct me if I am wrong as in range, normal cruise speeds, and price ??? The Falcon 50 is a nice plane however we already have a Challenger so this plane is to replace our smaller jet to gain a little more speed and range. I hear the Citation VII will do that nicely ?

Does the III or the VII have external lav servicing ? Are all of the APUs on the VII certified for use in flight ? GEN/AIR/HYD ??? Same gross weight for the III and the VII ?

Thanks again for the info.

 

[NJA Capt]

We already have a mach .73 Citation V and therfore an Excel is not much of an improvement other than physical space, correct me if I am wrong as in range, normal cruise speeds, and price ?

Does the III or the VII have external lav servicing ? Are all of the APUs on the VII certified for use in flight ? GEN/AIR/HYD ??? Same gross weight for the III and the VII ?

If you are running a straight "V" the Excel would be a vast improvement without the complexity of the VII. Not to mention much shorter runway lengths, if that's an issue. The range on the Excel is posted as 2080nm. The longest I have heard of is 1951nm (practically:1600-1800nm). Range on the VII is 2180nm (per Cessna). The Excel will beat the V and the VII in baggage space. 80 cu ft in the Excel vs 54 cu ft in the VII.

Speed on the Excel is .75/305KIAS, 430 KTAS. The VII is .83/336KIAS. The Excel does not have the "spar hump" in the aisle which the 650s have, which equates to more interior volume. There is more seated headroom than the VII too. The Excels do have the APU (air/elec), external lav and SPPR.

Hope this helps, good luck with your search.
NJA Capt

 

[King Nothing]

Spar Hump? I'm trying to think...is that lacated at the rear of the cabin just prior to the lav?

KN