Citation II

[Byei]

I was hoping that any of you with Citation II experience could give me a little feed back on the aircraft. Our flight department has decided to purchase a Citation II to replace our Caravan for many reasons (165kt cruise.) The Caravan has never been a good fit for our flights, but it was here. Our typical trip is 300nm on up to 400-500nm trips out of a 4400' airport. After all of our research we thought that the Citation II was the best jet under $2 million for our needs. We also considered Lear 31s and Beechjets. The Beech is a close runner up, but seems to take a bigger hit on rwy performance.

-For those of you that have time in the aircraft, do you think that we have a good fit?
-Do any of you have another jet that you think we should consider?

Thanks for any input or comments.

Happy 4th of July!

-Byei

 

[dhc8fo]

Sounds like a good fit. Just make sure they are aware of the difference in operating costs!

One I flew for a long time is for sale (N89D)...check it out on Controller. (not pimping, I get nothing from the sale, don't worry)

 

[bvt1151]

We did a similar study for a firm wanting to upgrade their flight department. On such short flights, it almost always is more economical to go with a t-prop. The King-Air 200 is what I would suggest. Seats slightly more than a CII or beechjet, speed difference is negligible on flights of 200nm or less, way more economical, no type rating required (12.5k max gross).

But sometimes people just want a jet. The beechjet is great, but if you're not going to run it over 500nm regularly, you're just not going to get the benefits. I don't have the data for the citation, but if you just HAVE to go jet, it may be your best bet.

I wouldn't be worried about the runway performance on the Beechjet, though. If you're only going 500 miles, you're gonna be able to leave enough fuel behind to handle pretty much anything. If push comes to shove, just drop an extra notch of flaps to get the performance you need if you don't have enough runway, or go flaps 0 with long runway and climb restrictions.

You'll need 7,000 feet to pull off a gross weight, flaps 10, 30 degrees, 4000 ft takeoff. That's about as bad as its going to get.

 

[Groundpounder]

The 550 is a pretty good airplane. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but you should be able to do most of your trips out of 4400'.

 

[Diesel]

I'd rather a 350 or 300 king air.

The II is nice but it's just a jet with a small cabin and nothing like a king air.

500 miles is so short it really doesn't take advantage of a jet.

Why on earth did you guys ever go with a caravan in the first place?

 

[AirBadger]

Why not a PC-12?

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Byei:

There are a couple of things I recommend when looking for a Citation II:

the increased MZFW (11,000 MZFW)
the increased MTOW (14,500 {Branson Mod})

 

[CapnVegetto]

You'll find that on a hot day, if you have the weight mods, 4,400 feet ain't gonna cut it, and you'll not be able to take off at MGTOW. I've flown the old ones (13,300), the Branson modded ones (14,500) and the late models (14,100). When it gets hot, they start eating up the runway. In the summertime, (30+ degrees) if you wanna take off at max gross, you're gonna need 5,000 feet all day long. For the range trip you're talking about, you need a turboprop, hands down. It's not even close. Look at a Kingair 200, 300, or 350, or a PC-12. All will be much cheaper to operate, much easier to get off of the 4,400 foot runway in any conditions, and suit your mission a thousand times better than a jet. Sticker shock on the operating costs will be a lot less too. Depending on how much you fly, a CE-550 will cost you between $1,500 and $2,200 an hour to operate. That's a biiiiiig jump from a Caravan and might scare the owner into scrapping the whole thing.

Get a turboprop. A jet is nothing but a money waste on short trips like you're talking about.

 

[bman]

The duce is a good airplane, but its old and maint. is gonna be what gets you on that thing. It will really contribute to the high operating costs. If you have to have a jet look at the CJ series. The little cruise missle engines hardly burn any gas. The airframes are newer and the cockpits are much more up to date than your average used Duce, Beechjet, etc... Round dials versus Glass, GPS, etc..

Tailswinds

 

[Byei]

Thanks for the input guys. I should have mentioned that we do have a heavy turboprop we are bringing on line in September (converting it from an airline configuration.) The turbo prop will be used on the 400nm and less trips and we would like the jet for pushing out to the coasts and expanding our markets. It also is to give the owner a nicer aircraft on the occasions when he takes a family trips. So the jet really is for longer routes and to supplement when the T-prop is busy. The company has operated larger aircraft before and is familiar with the operating costs. The Caravan is really a long story but it is really nice. So if anyone is interested in a 2002 Caravan let me know (it would look really good on floats)

Thanks again!
Byei

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Byei:

Now I am curious. What kind of T-prop are you converting from airline use?

 

[Byei]

I was curious to see if I could get away with just saying heavy turboprop We are converting a Dornier 328. The company used to have a Merlin and got rid of that to go to the Dornier. The conversion process has taken a little longer than planned however, plus we have started flying a lot more too.

byei

 

[b350capt]

Dont buy a beechjunk. Save yourself the hassle. The 550 however, is an aged bird and parts are getting more and more expensive and harder to find by the day. My recomendation from flying the 550 and king air series is go with a 300 or a 350 over the 550. Or upgrade to a bravo.....at least the parts are still tooled. Stay away from the straight CJ, terrible runway performance. No specific numbers but several years flying each. With the 300 you only lose about 60 knots in speed, and for a 500 mile stage length ends up being about 18 minutes difference. But thats just my opinion.

 

[f-5]

Go With The 31a....great Performance....good Short Field.....fast.....glass......single Point.....great Airplane

 

[Byei]

We've brought up the lear 31 to the owner and he wasn't happy with the cabin size. There are plans to increase our runway length to 5500' on the 5 year plan at our airport. The cruise speed of the beech is nice, however for under 2 million we would get stuck with the Collins 850 which seems to be no longer supported. We pushed for a King Air 200 early on to keep the operating cost down, and it would do pretty much everything we need, but the company would really like to graduate to a jet. I'd rather get back to flying one again too, I just wish I could put that extra 1000' of runway on now.

Byei

 

[Bandit60]

We've brought up the lear 31 to the owner and he wasn't happy with the cabin size. There are plans to increase our runway length to 5500' on the 5 year plan at our airport. The cruise speed of the beech is nice, however for under 2 million we would get stuck with the Collins 850 which seems to be no longer supported. We pushed for a King Air 200 early on to keep the operating cost down, and it would do pretty much everything we need, but the company would really like to graduate to a jet. I'd rather get back to flying one again too, I just wish I could put that extra 1000' of runway on now.

Byei

The King Air is the best choice for the mission you are talking about. However, If they are bent on getting a jet then the Lear31 is you best performer. It is fast and is a good runway performer. The Beech jet has nice room, but you control it by disturbing lift. There has been alot of dual engine flame outs lately. I once flew for a guy that upgraded from a king air 200 to a Citation 2. He wished he would have kept his kingair

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Byei:

We did the airliner turboprop conversion thing too (looking for lift in the 30+ seat range). We also considered the 328, but with the OEM out of business and something about a frequent and common APU problem we elected to go another route. But the performance numbers were quite nice. With regards to the 550, we have one of those too. I would honestly suggest, for not much more money, going with a straight 560. I've flown the II, SII, V, V Ultra - and of the bunch - the straight V was the best. Just a real solid performer and very little mx issues. In fact, I think we may be in the process soon of making that change, from the 550 to the 560.

Good Luck either way.