Chinese Pilot Pay Parity With Expats

[bafanguy]

What do those of you in the arena have to say about this ?:

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...04-23/chinese-pilots-demand-pay-parity-expats

I started to ponder this on an analytical level until got to this statement when it occurred to me there might be something other than money at work here:

"The arrogance in the bones of white people..."

Not being in this arena, I'm not qualified to comment. You probably are...

 

[chqflyer]

Well it's ingrained early on in our AWA (Angry White ***********************************) training starting in second grade. It's a 27 step apprenticeship that molds and guides us to be the sole cause of all evil and ill will to befall anyone unfortunate enough to not be a fellow AWA.


Disclaimer: I'm being highly sarcastic in case any dumbass out there can't figure it out for themselves.

 

[bafanguy]

Well, I was more curious about the relationship between nationals and expats. It'd appear there's some hostility judging by the tone of the statement.

This is an economic matter and airline management controls pay offered for the jobs based on supply and demand. The only thing expats do is accept or reject what's offered, right ? I'm having trouble seeing where arrogance, much less race, is a factor.

To start off down that road is a needless distraction from what might otherwise be a legit beef.

Just curious since the expat world is far outside my frame of reference.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I work in Japan, not China! But you are judging by the tone of something that has been translated? Try this, translate the simplest of phrases from English into mandarin in any of the popular translate programs and then translate it back to English, then account for cultural implications like the word "strong" meaning something mostly good in English but if you tell a Japanese lady that she is "strong" she will be offended because to her you just called her fat! Perceptions can lead to wrong conclusions when it comes to the way the locals think about things. I can tell you that in Asia western pilots are perceived as entitled, simply because western pilots tend to let everyone know their displeasure about things (maybe a little too much, I might add) my point is that because they might think we bitch a little too much, doesn't mean you will be mistreated there!

I personally think that they shouldn't get paid less than any foreigner..! It is their train set after all...!

 

[bafanguy]

...you are judging by the tone of something that has been translated?

I can tell you that in Asia western pilots are perceived as entitled...

...doesn't mean you will be mistreated there!

I personally think that they shouldn't get paid less than any foreigner

I have no idea if the statement in question is from a translation. I can only read what was written in the article. My use of "judging" was in the context of ...could be from the appearance of...a question rather than a definitive statement on a subject about which I've admitted knowing nothing. It's why I asked...

[I have a functional grasp of "lost in translation".]

And I asked that question because the article has overtones of animosity perhaps based on something in addition to money...and I wondered if there might be some friction between Asian pilots and Western expats.

I didn't have any reason to believe expats were/are/would be overtly mistreated by their local counterparts. Resentment can smolder beneath the surface...and the article said:

"It also appears to indicate a growing resentment toward the expatriate pilots by their domestic counterparts."

I tend to side with the Chinese pilots on the pay issue.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

No one would be happy to have foreigners taking jobs in your home soil...., but I do know a lot of folks that work in China and here in Japan, the only thing growing is the need for more pilots...., urgently! For what my friends tell me (and here as well) is that if you treat them well they will respond in kind.

 

[bafanguy]

No one would be happy to have foreigners taking jobs in your home soil...

Nothing lost in translation with that concept !! :laugh:

However, just for my education on the expat market, you guys are working in these other countries because they don't have the mechanism to produce enough pilots, fast enough, to support the business plans of their airline industry, right ?

If this is the case, I suppose there are many reasons for it, most of which don't necessarily have to reflect badly on the countries themselves...circumstances, societies, politics and economies change, taking time to catch up to current conditions.

[I know expats have been around for a very long time]

Finally to my question: IF local pilots consider the jobs "theirs" and IF they feel expats are coming in and taking "their" jobs, what would they propose as an alternative to using experienced expats to keep the wheels turning (in the absence of enough qualified, experienced locals) and the industry going/growing until their country produces enough of its own to run the business ?

It seems the lack of expats to accommodate growth could stunt the industry to the point where eventual jobs for locals would be much fewer than they would've been otherwise.

Or...are expats forever ?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

You make it sound as if they are in front of the headquarters with signs to kick everyone out! It is not that they feel that the job is "theirs" they are pilots just like you and I, proud of their profession just like you and I and they would prefer that the jobs would be taken by Chinese nationals just like in Spain, Germany, Italy or any other country! But they are also well aware that the demand for the near future requires additional workforce, they understand the problem and adjust to the situation.

Is it forever? I couldn't tell you anymore than the next guy where this business is headed, all I can tell you is that most companies in Asia are in a deficit, for the meantime (whatever meantime lasts) they will not only have to continue accepting foreign crews, they will have to increase the amount of hiring. There has been a steady increase in T&C's do to the demand, hence the complaints about the pay difference

 

[NEDude]

I am new to the expat world, in China, but I can tell you in my very limited experience here I have yet to see any expressions of resentment or hostility. In fact thus far quite the opposite. Most of the Chinese FOs I have met have been quite friendly and many of them have spent time in the United States for their own flight training. I just had one FO jokingly call me a "yankee" when he found out I was from the northeast (NE in my name) because he had lived in Georgia for three years. I am not at Air China and I do not know what the Chinese nationals are getting paid versus the expats at my airline. But as many have pointed out, China, as well as the rest of Asia, are desperate for pilots and their own training infrastructure has not caught up to the demand. There may be some resentment, but I think most also have a realistic understanding of why China is trying to get expats to come over.

 

[typhoonpilot]

I think the problem is that some of the agencies have started advertising the pre-tax package in order to entice pilots over with big numbers ( over $300,000/year ).

If I was a Chinese pilot and saw that, I'd be pretty pissed off as well. I'd be asking my company why they don't pay my tax.

This is not a good sign for the long term employment of expat pilots in China. Same thing happened in Taiwan in the 90s. The jealousy builds and then the local pilots will work towards getting the expats terminated.

One of the reasons that expat pilots in Japan and Korea don't face this kind of problem is that the expat pilots and local pilots are roughly equal in wages. In fact, the expats might be paid much less in some circumstances, when benefits etc. are totaled in to the equation.

All it would take is an economic hiccup and most of the expats in China will be terminated. That's not a comfortable position to be in. Been there, done that.


Typhoonpilot

 

[chqflyer]

How does the payment of taxes work? Many folks I've talked to that fly in Asia or the Middle East mention that the employers cover their taxes. Wouldn't that amount also be considered income and again subject to tax?

 

[WYOMINGPILOT]

.
All it would take is an economic hiccup and most of the expats in China will be terminated. That's not a comfortable position to be in. Been there, done that

I agree, it is currently a high risk situation to be employed in China. ExPat Captains make about 40% more than a basic Chinese Captain but you have to evaluate the whole package. Any economic hiccup and the ExPats are the first to go. The long term outlook is good for the foreseeable future as huge orders and deliveries are taking place. For the most part at my company the ExPats are not looked on with jealousy but seen as a necessary part of helping build the company during a tumultuous growth spurt. I do however get pompous little comments, mostly from the young Captains here and this is what I tell them.

1. When I had 2800 hours as you do, I would just be at the point where I was marketable as an RJ FO. There is a reason I am paid 40% more and its called EXPERIENCE. When I fly to Hong Kong and Singapore you will be so far behind the jet, your still back in the mainland. Your fine in your little enclosed box in China but leave your element and you can't keep up or play in the big league.

2. Where is my stability and security. I sign a 3 year contract, you signed a lifetime contract. I am gone at the first whiff of an economic downturn, you on the other hand will be taken care of during a downturn.

3. Where is my House? The company built and sold you a house at 1/4 the full cost of a house in China. Currently this is about a 3 million rmb benefit.

4. What lifestyle change and hardships do you suffer by being in China compared to most ExPats, who commute and leave their families behind and work in a foreign environment far different than what they are accustomed towards.

5. Who paid for your training? I put my dues in and spent a decade or more flying broken down half spent aircraft flying almost for free, mostly at night in horrific weather whereas you had everything handed to you on a silver platter from off the street to 737 Captain in just 4 years.

Until the Chinese pilots stick together and work on improving their own terms and conditions it is going to be difficult for any long term stability and security as an ExPat in China. It seems many are trying to drag us ExPats down to their standards vs. trying to raise the bar and elevate themselves to similar ExPat terms and conditions. Labor laws and Labor unions are very new here in China and things change very very slowly in the Middle Kingdom. The more senior Insructors actually make much more than the ExPats. In my opinion they earn every rmb they make as this is not an easy flying environment in the long term. In the end buyer beware.

 

[bafanguy]

I do however get pompous little comments, mostly from the young Captains here and this is what I tell them.

1. When I had 2800 hours as you do, I would just be at the point where I was marketable as an RJ FO. There is a reason I am paid 40% more and its called EXPERIENCE. When I fly to Hong Kong and Singapore you will be so far behind the jet, your still back in the mainland. Your fine in your little enclosed box in China but leave your element and you can't keep up or play in the big league.

WYOMINGPILOT,

What do the young Chinese captains say in response to that ?

 

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Again for the most part the overall sentiment towards the foreign (ExPat) pilots is one of acceptance. They understand the high demand for Captains in the rapidly expanding environment. All of the FOs are quite open and friendly and a pleasure to fly with. The young Captains who know our salaries and schedules however sometimes display a little bit of a pompous attitude and that's when I destroy them with the above previous post. The senior Captains actually have better schedules and the experienced Instructors actually earn more than us but in my opinion they earn it all as it is a very difficult flying environment. China is not a career option as an ExPat, it is strictly a place to earn the Big Cash for one at the most 2 contracts and then move on to a career job and escape with your dignity intact. Some pilots come here thinking they can hang on for a decade or longer and I cringe at the thought of doing this for that long. The medicals, delays, pollution, cultural differences, QAR, and no long term stability will eventually wear you down. In the short term, 1 to 2 contracts a great option to shore up your kids college, pay off the house, get out of debt, build you a nest egg and then move on.