Chandelles and lazy eights...Have Q's

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

Any "olde tyme" tricks to doing them right?

Chandelles
Do you bank to thirty and then yank the wheel and add power? If the maximum pitch is at a 90 degree point, how can I still turn the remaining 90 without stalling and loosing altitude? Because maximum altitude is the goal here, right? Also, based on everyone's experience, are the DPE looking for the exact tolerances here, or is it more of a coordinated climbing 180?

Lazy eights, I won't even go there, they're just so ugly...at least the first few I did. Will they have to be done over the road, or is the reliance on the DG mandatory here?

Thanks

 

[flywithastick]

Any "olde tyme" tricks to doing them right?

Chandelles
Do you bank to thirty and then yank the wheel and add power?

That's what I remember. bank 30, start pulling.

If the maximum pitch is at a 90 degree point, how can I still turn the remaining 90 without stalling and loosing altitude?

You just answered your own question. The max pitch point is 90°. Pitch angle decreases to maintain speed from 90° to 180°.

Because maximum altitude is the goal here, right?

Max altitude gain with 180° of heading change and not stalling (maintaining required speed wrt PTS specification, e.g., 1.1 Vso).

Also, based on everyone's experience, are the DPE looking for the exact tolerances here, or is it more of a coordinated climbing 180?

More than just a climbing 180. Need to his the right speeds, bank angles, headings. I hope the DPEs are looking for what the PTS prescribes. That's what I did and it worked.

Lazy eights, I won't even go there, they're just so ugly...at least the first few I did.

Bummer. it's one of the most fun, graceful maneuvers you can do in a plane. Stay with it. You get it down and it'll be fun.

Will they have to be done over the road, or is the reliance on the DG mandatory here?

I used outside references (90°, 270° ref) and DG (360° final roll out heading) for the various segments of the maneuver.

it's been a while since I didn this where it counts. check a flight maneuvers text to be sure.

 

[KickSave]

You really shouldn't need the DG at all for Chandelles or Lazy 8s. It's a visual manuever, you use a reference off your wingtip and keep your eye on that reference for your 45, 90, 135 and 180 points. Pick a good reference point like a mountain, a big cloud, or something easy to keep track of. Start with the reference point on your opposite wingtip, so that when you finish the 180 maneuver, the reference point is now on YOUR side and easier to track.

It helped me to hit the target positions to break the maneuvers down into each quarter. Max pitch up here, 30 bank there, level pitch here, max pitch down here, etc.

The purpose is to evaluate your co-ordination, planning and control. The PTS explains what is and isn't within acceptible tolerances.

Talk to your CFI about them, and just keep practicing. Good luck.

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

Ok, it makes sense, I think my problem may have been not pulling up soon enough or not steep enough, rolling past 90 a little too fast and consequently hitting the 180 point without riding the stall horn. That's in a left turn, without enough right rudder to stem the turn to the left. Ok, so I need to be pitched higher at 90, and slower, and that will give me greater rate of turn during the second half.

You know, just writing it out helps.

 

[labbats]

Lazy 8s should be L-A-Z-Y. Go so slow entering and leaving them that you are almost bored and it should flow well.

 

[Bernoulli]

Steps for chandelles:
1. Straight and level with airspeed just below maneuvering speed and your outside referances picked out IE... current heading, 90, & 180 degree. Do not use your heaqding indicator...look outside...it's how you are supposed to do it and trust me... it's way easier.

2. simultaneously add full power and roll into 30 degree bank without pitching up.

3. Once established in a 30 degree bank slowly start to pull up... think or say to yourself "hold the bank, slowly increse the pitch" and say that over and over all the way to your 90 degree point.

4. Once you get to 90 degrees, memorize your pitch and hold it... do not change that pitch(should be around 15 degrees), but now you slowly let out the bank until you have zero bank when you reach the 180 degree point... Think or say " hold the pitch and let out the bank". Keep saying that over and over between the 90 and the 180 referance points.

5. At your 180 degree point you want to be very close to a stall... without stalling. You also want to hold whatever altitude you have at your 180 point. Once you finally reach that 180 point you slowly let the nose down and gain airspeed without loosing the 180 degree altitude.

Good luck

 

[bobbysamd]

Lazy 8s

Good suggestions above. I would only add that you should concentrate very carefully on flying Lazy 8s slowly. A common error with Lazy 8s is rushing them. The reason why they tend to be rushed is in the normal Commercial training profile you first do constant-altitude turns and then chandelles, which are extremely aggressive maneuvers. Then you do Lazy 8s, with this aggressive mind-set.

I second wholeheartedly using roads as ground references for Lazy 8s and chandelles. Oklahoma was an ideal training area in this regard, because it is laid out as a grid with one-mile sections and roads that extend beyond the horizon (which also works like a charm for ground reference maneuvers!). Don't be looking inside when you do the commercial manuevers.

Hope that helps a little more. Good luck with your Commercial.

 

[Mickey]

Bernoulli said it well for the chandelles. Keep in mind you will have to add more back pressure to maintain pitch from 90-180 degrees as airspeed decreases. Flywithastick was incorrect in saying that pitch angle decreases to maintain airspeed between 90-180 degrees. Good luck Take care!

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

Bernoulli said it well for the chandelles. Keep in mind you will have to add more back pressure to maintain pitch from 90-180 degrees as airspeed decreases. Flywithastick was incorrect in saying that pitch angle decreases to maintain airspeed between 90-180 degrees. Good luck Take care!

well, first of all, isn't the 90 to 180 portion supposed to be constant pitch? that due to the fact that the airplane is climbing and slowing down evermore? so, Flywithastick was probably correct saying that releasing just a little bit would help the airplane not stall before reaching 180

???

 

[flywithastick]

well, first of all, isn't the 90 to 180 portion supposed to be constant pitch? that due to the fact that the airplane is climbing and slowing down evermore? so, Flywithastick was probably correct saying that releasing just a little bit would help the airplane not stall before reaching 180

???

Point taken. Thanks

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

More questions,

in a lazy eight, is the power left alone in the setting the allows for Va after trim, or is it adjusted throughout the maneuver?

 

[Flymach2]

Hi...

During the Lazy 8 maneuver, power is set for normal cruise prior to entry. Adjustments aren't necessary. (Keeping in mind Va limits). It should also be noted that for the Chandelle full power is an option when using an aircraft with a constant speed propeller. You may use cruise power as well. Learn both ways and pay attention so as to not exceed RPM tolerances.

Regards

 

[KickSave]

well, first of all, isn't the 90 to 180 portion supposed to be constant pitch? that due to the fact that the airplane is climbing and slowing down evermore? so, Flywithastick was probably correct saying that releasing just a little bit would help the airplane not stall before reaching 180

???

The airplane flying handbook does specifically state that during the second half of a chandelle, since the angle of bank will be decreasing, which increases the vertical component of lift, that a little back pressure might need to be released to keep the nose from getting too high(stalling).

That's what the official govt publication says on the subject.(FAA 8083-3)

However, from personal experience, I've found that if you want to maintain a constant pitch attitude, and keep that pitch attitude at the MCA which is the target of the second half of the 180 maneuver, that you will actually need to increase back pressure as you slow down. If you simply hold the back pressure at a fixed setting, your nose will drop as you begin to slow down (less TDF on the horizontal stabilizer). So you add back pressure to keep the nose up, and keep the plane at MCA. The attitude must remain the same during the second half of the maneuver, but the amount of back pressure needed or applied is not required to stay the same. In fact, you need to keep whatever back pressure is required, in order to be at your MCA at the end of the maneuver. Allowing the nose to drop along the back half of the maneuver won't get you to MCA at the completion.



(Disclaimer, this is from my experience in an Arrow III, other airplanes may differ )

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

I see,
so slight variations of pitch during the latter part of the chandelle, and cruise power for Lazy 8's (thats 110 for the 172 I am doing it in, seems a little high, although no abrupt maneuvers are performed)
I checked the Flying Handbook, and it's pretty quiet on the speeds, other than "whatever is necessary"

Thanks, guys

 

[Bernoulli]

"I see,
so slight variations of pitch during the latter part of the chandelle"

Do not confuse the reduction of back pressure on the yoke with the change of pitch. from the 90 degree point to the 180 degree point you will want to keep the same pitch... lets say 14 degrees pitch up... The thing is, is that during this section of the maneuver you will also be taking out the 30 degrees of bank which will mean the vertical component of lift will increse. This may make the aircraft pitch up more. If that happens you will reduce back pressure on the yoke but only enough to maintain your 14 degrees of pitch up. Remember... you do not want to change the pitch... so only change back pressure if the pitch starts to change.
May the force of lift be with you.

 

[bobbysamd]

Lazy 8 power

in a lazy eight, is the power left alone in the setting the allows for Va after trim, or is it adjusted throughout the maneuver?

Keep your hand off the throttle. Take a look at the PTS and/or Flight Training Handbook if you have any doubts.

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

[B The thing is, is that during this section of the maneuver you will also be taking out the 30 degrees of bank which will mean the vertical component of lift will increse [/B]

that's it, now it makes a lot more sense, thanks

 

[JoePylot]

Steps for chandelles:

2. simultaneously add full power and roll into 30 degree bank without pitching up.

 

[kepjet]

Lazy 8's

The way I learned to do these well is to SLOWLY roll about 5 degrees of bank and SLOWLY pitch up simultaneously. Practice that several times before you attempt the full maneuver. Once you have that down, do the above mentioned again, only this time hold the yoke in the same position as far as bank goes and SLOWLY increase pitch until your feet and legs are parallel with the horizon. As you increase pitch, your bank angle will increase also to about 30 degrees. Hold that picture! At the appropriate speed, the airplane will cut through just like it's supposed to. It's important to stay coordinated throughout the entire maneuver! As the aircraft "breaks" and starts heading toward Earth, SLOWLY pull back on the yoke until you are again at level flight. Repeat to the right.

I've done these in both high and low wing aircraft and have had the same sucess.

To perfect this maneuver, you may want to consider covering your instruments with a sectional or towel to help keep your head outside the airplane. It's cool too to uncover the instruments at the end of the maneuver and see the altimeter show exactly the same as you entered it!

Once you have this down, you will want to do this maneuver everytime you fly. When you teach someone else to do this, it is one of the most satisfying moments you can have with your clothes on (for the record though, I've never tried them without clothes)!! Especially if they too have been struggling with this!

Hope this helps! Keep us posted!

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

I finally realized the value of using landmarks as references. It helps tremendously, and lazy eights are really not that hard.
I still keep rocking pretty hard just before stall in a chandelle, had to cut the power and jam the right pedal in to keep it from spinning.

Any gouge on eights-on-pylons, other than dive when slow, pull up when fast?