CFI's - Some People Just Can't Fly!

[Cardinal]

CFI's, especially new ones, do give this heed. There is a percentage of the population that cannot be entrusted with an aircraft - ever. No matter how simple the aircraft or operating environment, there is a contingent that is not up to the task.

Given the opportunity, these will eventually kill themselves or come very close to it. This fool was my student, briefly: http://www.sunjournal.com/story.asp?slg=031504pilot(pics) This weekend he crashed his personal C172 in the trees after a botched go-around.

Thankfully he was operating under someone else's endorsement when he wrecked his airplane. It's amazing he lived, but I guess he was just to annoying to die. It was his flagrant disregard for my instructions and the FARs that eventually became too much for me to handle, and we parted ways under less than friendly circumstances. I'm not a veteran CFI, but of the three worst students that I have ever flown with, they've all bent metal. Thankfully they weren't my students at the time but the pattern is clear to me. There are those that will crash an airplane if given the chance. If a student frightens you for 50 hours and then displays a stroke of brilliance, don't solo them, even under pressure. It'll bite you in the arse. Please, please, don't give these 1%ers the signoff, and keep the keys locked away.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

What a tool, glad that wasn't your endorsement dude. I will be timid when I endorse someone; it’s your name on the line. What are your solutions to dealing with a student you simply will not endorse? Pass him on to another CFI after having a talk with him?

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Retire.

No more !@#$%^ instructing!

 

[flytheblue]

What are your solutions to dealing with a student you simply will not endorse? Pass him on to another CFI after having a talk with him?

Send that student up for numerous stage checks...lol
(sorry it's the green ST.Patty's Day beer getting to me!)

Generally a flight school would want you to work with someone for as long as it takes, as that is $ for them, but there comes a point where you may need to have the talk with a student. That talk could include talking about trying a new instructor for a different teaching style (and thus lifting the burden off you), or possibly rethinking the goal of getting a pilot's license if they really seem like they can't improve or just dont have what it takes to fly. The hard part is determining who does have "what it takes" and who doesn't, and being fair about that. I'd say most students are somewhat safety conscious and honest about their limitations and what they need to improve on. There was only one guy that I remember passing off because I knew I'd never feel comfortable enough with his flying to sigh him off solo...he would do well at times but he had a real problem with "Resignation" that he just couldn't seem to get over no matter what. This was awhile ago...He hasn't officially quit yet but he hardly flies anymore.

Just watch out for those "5" Hazardous Attitudes... and the old guys.

 

[SwissAviator]

sometimes there is nothing you can do. some people simply weren't cut out. granted not too many people fall under that category but there are some out there.

 

[Indigo]

Just watch out for those "5" Hazardous Attitudes... and the old guys.

I think we need to have some sympathy for older guys (and gals), but everyone's mental skills start deteriorating at some point... just different points for different people. It will happen to you if you live that long.

I once gave some instruction to a man who was probably in his 70s in his own C-210 which he had owned for a long time. I felt OK about signing him off for a BFR, but not for IFR proficiency. Presumably at one time he had been sharp, but the effects of age were showing. Although he said that he understood why I didn't sign him off and seemed a little embarrassed about his performance he later found someone else to sign him off. He managed to keep himself out of trouble (I don't think he really flew IFR anyway) until he died a year or two later of cancer.

 

[avbug]

Sounds to me like the student simply made a mistake, and it became compounded.

Then again, I suppose all of you tossing that first stone were god's gift to aviation as students, huh?

 

[pilotman2105]

Darwinism apparently applies in airplanes as well...

 

[cubegirl7]

landings are very difficult especially when stating out, it's through experience that you learn.

 

[pilotman2105]

I'm not denying that landings are learned through experience. Everyone here I'm sure can attest to the fact that they've "slammed" a few onto the runway. This experience taught each of us to change something next time in our landing. But when the CFI is saying that the student was not following his instructions and guidance, it's difficult to have compassion for a student that ends up upside-down.

Moral of the story is that if you want to fly airplanes, learn from those who have more experience than you. Take their advice very seriously.

 

[avbug]

...it's difficult to have compassion for a student that ends up upside-down.

No, it's really not. But if you feel that way, perhaps you should steer clear of instructing.

 

[bobbysamd]

FAA

from the posted article
The Federal Aviation Authority is expected to conduct an investigation at the site Monday.

Ah, yes. The good old Federal Aviation Authority.

Gotta love those reporters who attempt to report on aviation. It's okay that I say that; I worked in radio news for more than twelve years.

 

[pilotman2105]

Avbug, to clarify my statement that you referenced in your post, if a student is not following the instructor's instructions (as mentioned previously in the thread by the former instructor), and as a result of not following those instructions the student ends up in an accident or incident, I would not have the compassion as I would someone who ended up in an honest accident.

It's one thing if the student is making an honest effort to learn. It is another thing if the student is ignoring advice, comments, and suggestions. Then again, I suppose that whether the student is ignoring or not is more a perceptual thing on the part of the instructor.

All in all, this isn't to say that I would give up all together trying to teach the student, but at a certain point, the instructor's time is better spent elsewhere with another student.

 

[wickedpilot]

Cardinal,

Sorry to hear that this guy was once your student. I've gotta ask one question though: Did he have a SODA ride for that 'Lazy-eye'? I mean, his picture is plastered right there in the article and he looks like he might be blind in one eye.

Could've had something to do with that 6-to-8 ft of clearance he "knew" he had above the trees.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen guys with only one good eye pass a SODA but this accident sounds to me like the pilot had an issue with depth perception...-along with failure to follow the CFI's teachings.

 

[Cardinal]

Did he have a SODA ride for that 'Lazy-eye'?

No, he didn't, which I found more than a little odd myself. His certificate only called for corrective lenses. I could've accepted a sharper learning curve because of the poorer depth perception, but the guy was starting to scare me. And avbug, I'm not God's gift to aviation, but it wasn't just his flying that was a concern, he felt that flying an aircraft without a current solo endorsement or annual inspection was hunky-dory, despite advice to the contrary. Screw that, I wanted nothing to do with the situation.

 

[ILStoMinimums]

No, he didn't, which I found more than a little odd myself. His certificate only called for corrective lenses. I could've accepted a sharper learning curve because of the poorer depth perception, but the guy was starting to scare me. And avbug, I'm not God's gift to aviation, but it wasn't just his flying that was a concern, he felt that flying an aircraft without a current solo endorsement or annual inspection was hunky-dory, despite advice to the contrary. Screw that, I wanted nothing to do with the situation.

So are you saying that he crashed the plane w/out an endorsement whatsoever?
Not being a CFI myself, I've bumped into other students who think they are born a pilot - really annoying! Some of the know-it-alls are the ones who have 5000 hrs in FS and think they can fly a 747 if given the chance, or the ones who are completely spaced out when their Instructor is briefing them before a flight.

 

[avbug]

When a student comes along who insists on freelancing and operating outside the regulation, all you can do is back off and document the student's actions. If the student has your endorsement and is attempting to operate outside the parameters you've set, contact the FAA immediately with the student's information. If a mishap occurs, you can easily establish that it was done outside your control, and thus divorce yourself from the students acts.

Only if it's well established that you had no clear control or input in the students actions can you be assured of not getting dragged into the mire.

Of course, in a civil suit, anything is possible. However, documentation and official recognition of your actions (by reporting the matter to the FAA for investigation) is the best chance you've got.