CFI's - How do you charge?

[Edward Summer]

I've done my fair share of instructing in the past at an FBO and thought I was pretty fair when I would bill my students. Small talk, coffee breaks, and waiting for line service to pull out the airplane were some of the things I would take into consideration when billing my students for time on the ground. Don't get me wrong, I would bill accordingly but would not gouge a student for every waking minute - I would be professional and fair.

I am working on my MEI and had a situation where I feel the instructor "mis-billed" me for the time on the ground. There was very little instuction given in the pre/post flight lesson I had....So, my next lesson I will inquire as how he intends to bill for ground time and see where that takes me.

How do you folks bill your students? Any comments or suggestions on how to handle my situation?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[midlifeflyer]

There's a bit of variety out there.

Some CFIs bill strictly on Hobbs.

Some CFIs bill based on Hobbs + a fixed amount of time fro pre-and postflight briefings, such as "Hobbs + .5"

Some CFIs bill a fixed rate for a "regular lesson" (not a XC where there will be more time spent than the typical 2-hour block)

Some CFIs bill "handshake to handshake".

The bottom line is that they can all be fair and they can all be unfair. The CFI has to be up front on the method and both student and CFI have to agree that it works for them.

 

[taildragger]

Billing

Hi Ed,
The way I approach this is: If the student and I conduct a ground session for longer than 15 minutes (explaining maneuvers, flight planning, etc..) I bill for my time. The key is: I bill for the time I'm TEACHING...not for small talk, walking to the flight line, or anything else that is not directly related to my student learning.

As far as being the student. I always try to clear up how the instructor charges for ground when I first meet him/her so that there is no confusion. If you felt like you were misbilled then I would definitely bring it up the next lesson.

I hope this helps.

Tom
www.luv2fly.com

 

[Ralgha]

Does your plumber take small talk into consideration when billing you? Don't think so. How about your doctor? Hell no.

I don't bill for time I'm not teaching either, but I've been thinking about it lately. This is the only profession where we charge as little as possible, and it hurts us all. If a student is scheduled for a two hour block, why should they not be charged for two hours? I have to be there for those two hours because of them.

Sure the way most instructors do it (including me) is more fair (for the student!), but no one else in the world does it that way.

 

[Timebuilder]

I charged accurately for the time I spent doing a pre flight briefing, and for a couple of preflight inspections until I knew the student could do a good job without my help. If I was not with him on the ramp, actively instructing or checking his work, I did not charge him for the preflight inspection time.

After that, I charged for the hobbs time and a brief post flight briefing.

 

[88_MALIBU]

Ralgha
Great point

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

I do it pretty much how Timebuilder stated. We add .2 automatically and then it's up to the CFI as to how much will actually count towards ground. Only when I get no-showed do I add time I haven't really instructed for. It's sometimes the only way to teach them that lesson!!!! It's my time and their dollar!!


Mr. I.

 

[Weasil]

bill for your time

You always see posts online about how instructors don't make enough money. You invest a lot of time and effort into your training not to mention your own money. You should be paid for your expertise.
Ralgha makes good points. When I call my attorney she bills me in blocks of 12 minutes, even if I don't need her for more than 20 seconds. To expand on his points, if you pay for a class in college you don't get money back if you show up late or take a long break during the lecture.

Just be upfront with your students about your policy and if you provide great instruction they won't mind paying you for your two hours. If you are preflighting with them, don't just stand around or send them out on their own. Each time you go out make sure you teach them something new. Consider asking them if they would like to schedule ground instruction lessons too on bad weather days. Often a lesson or two in the classroom can save them money learning a particular topic in the aircraft and it means you get to make more money too, so it's good for everybody.

I had an instructor when I was younger who would schedule me for 3 hours and then try to chit chat to fill the whole 3 hours and then bill me for it. I stopped going to him after a few lessons. I had another guy who charged more but always made valuable use of my time and so it was worth it.

 

[Whirlwind]

At my flight school, each instructor is allowed to charge for their time pretty much as they see fit.

Personally I have a standard .2 that I add to each flight, simply to cover pre/post flight time. From time to time, I'll leave it off for certain students, depending on their financial situation, and what we're working on, other times I'll add more, if we spend time in front of the white board for more than 10 minutes or so.

We charge $35/hr, so .2 adds $7 to each bill. If I fly 50 times a month, it adds $160/month to my paycheck, which is nothing to sneeze at considering that most of us make about $1K a month.

Fly Safe!

 

[scubabri]

I thought long and hard about this before I started doing this and here is what I do.

My students are instructed to get to the school about 15 minutes prior to our scheduled time, start the preflight, and then I meet them at the airplane at the time we were scheduled to be together.

The clock starts ticking at that point, if they are late, then I'm am still out there, and I just watch them do the preflight.

we go fly, I get on the ground about 15-20 minutes before our time is scheduled to end, and the student puts the aircraft away, while I am taking care of paperwork, logbook. When they come in after putting the aircraft away we talk about the flight and schedule the next lesson, and they are on their way at the time the lesson is scheduled to end.

When I first started teaching, I would only charge them for the time that I was actually teaching. When I did the math and figured out all the other stuff that I was doing for the student, such as logbooks, paperwork, scheduling, that I wasn't getting paid for, I was losing all kinds of money because I wasn't billing that student, nor could I bill for any other student.

So, I treat it like a business and if I am doing anything for that student, they are getting charged for it. I also keep non-essential conversation to a minimum, and if I don't have another student scheduled, I'll wait until after the session is done to conduct that stuff.

I don't get paid enough to give stuff away, but I also want to make sure that the student gets value for the money that they are paying.

b

 

[Weasil]

Exactly. The small amount it adds to their bill makes a big difference to your monthly income. If they have a problem being asked to pay for your services filling out paperwork, auditing their logbook etc.. explain to them that this is part of your service as a professional. Be polite and be consistent and be upfront.

This is similar to all the posts on here you see about people paying for an FO job that takes away from somebody else being paid for that position. Around where I grew up pilots would even work for free in single pilot ops just to build flight time, so nobody was ever going to pay somebody for the position. You should expect more for your time and service.

 

[Edward Summer]

Thanks to all whom replied!

I just flew 1.5 for my MEI with instructor "X" and afterwards I asked him how he billed. His reply, "I generally bill from the time I meet the student till the end." "Even for the pre-flight, I bill that time whether I do it or not because it is my responsiblity!" What is this cr*p? I asked that even if the student is rated in the airplane would you charge for this time - and he said yes!

Today I logged 1.5, had the airplane preflighted but left it in the hangar (it was about 7 degrees F). Had little to no preflight discussion, waited for the lineman to pull out the a/c, flew the 1.5, and hardly any post-flight discussion. Did the logbook thing, and was billed for 1.9! Now, am I correct to say that this is unfair? Am I overreacting? Maybe a 1.7 for instructor time - but the other time he spent eating chicken nuggets in front of me and discussing what he forgot fromt the last lession should not count!

So, any input would help. I may be considering a different course of action.

Ed.

 

[BobSmith_av8r]

He seems to have forgotten you are the paying customer. If you tried talking to him about this and you can't agree then shouldn't you find a different instructor? This will only get morefrustrating.

Besides - isn't there some preflight and postflight instruction you should be doing? Are you aware of the purpose of the lesson before getting into the aircraft?

 

[WhiteCloud]

I try to keep it simple and consistent. My fee has nothing to do with the Hobbs meter. That's just the time the engine is running. I charge 2.0 hours for a flight lesson where the scheduled time is usually 2.5 hours. Sometimes it's to the student's benefit to end a flight earlier than planned. I still charge 2 hours. If it goes a little longer I still charge 2.0 hours. Sometimes the most valuable and productive sessions are the ones that you fly .5 and fix problems with the other time.

 

[midlifeflyer]

His reply, "I generally bill from the time I meet the student till the end." "Even for the pre-flight, I bill that time whether I do it or not because it is my responsibility!" What is this cr*p? I asked that even if the student is rated in the airplane would you charge for this time - and he said yes!

So, any input would help. I may be considering a different course of action.

I'm not sure why folks get so bent out of shape about the time part. What's the difference between HOBBS at $40/hour, HOBBS+.5 at $35/hour, and "handshake to handshake" at $30/hour?

As long as the "student" knows in advance what the charge will be and it's basis and agrees to it, =anything= is "fair".

The "cr*p" is when you are expecting one thing and get another. And the "cr*p" in your situation is the nonsense about responsibility for the pre-flight.

I like (and have recently started to use) WhiteCloud's block method. Would you be as upset if, when you first spoke to this CFI to arrange the lesson (not after the lesson was over) he said, for example, "Look, let me tell you how I charge. I charge $30/hour for the block of time time that we've scheduled. A typical session will be a 2-hour block, or $60.00."

You might not like the idea of the $60 and take your business elsewhere. That's okay. Your prerogative as the customer.

 

[Hootie9750]

I charge by the hobbs. I wish I could charge for all the free ground I give but thats just the way it is where I work.

 

[acaTerry]

Here's what I did (at least before the local airport made it legally impossible to be an independent CFI):

Flat rate for CFI.....................................................20/hr
2/ hr more for each 100 hrs of dual given.............80/hr
Specialized experience (airline pilot, additional instructor ratings, etc at 2/ hr for each................................................8/hr

As you can see, it becomes too much per the formula after a while, so you have to be reasonable...I stopped at 45/ hr.

What is important is that the student realize that your time is valuable. I billed from show time to when we parted, except for lunch if we had it. Why? Because:
1. Forces stdt to be on time for lesson.
2. Stdts will spend 45 minutes of YOUR time making small talk. You are unavailable to anyone else during this booking, and the stdt wants you for free by samll talking with a question peppered in here and there? No way Jose.
3. You position yourself as a professional.
4. The student will expect (and deserves) professional instruction.

Good luck.