CFI checkrides fulfilling BFR requirements

[flyf15]

Could anyone point me to an offical source as to if CFI checkrides fulfill the pilot's BFR requirements or not?

I argue that they do not, only a checkride for a pilot certificate/rating counts, and a CFI checkride is for a CFI certificate, not a pilot certificate. Haven't found a single person that agrees with me though...

 

[nosehair]

Yes, you are correct. The CFI ride is not a pilot ride. It's in the strictly legal reading of the rules. Even though the CFI has to demonstrate Commercial Pilot proficiency, the wording of the check is on his/her instructing ability, not pilot ability. The CFI Examiner can write a Flight Review endorsement in the logbook, but that is the only way to make it legal.
This was a much heated discussion some time ago ( I think on this board) and there were copies of legal opinions on this subject.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

BFR can be done by a CFI and endorsed in the logbook

 

[A Squared]

Could anyone point me to an offical source as to if CFI checkrides fulfill the pilot's BFR requirements or not?

I argue that they do not, only a checkride for a pilot certificate/rating counts, and a CFI checkride is for a CFI certificate, not a pilot certificate. Haven't found a single person that agrees with me though...

Official source, right here. This is a letter from the FAA's eastern region counsel


1 Aviation Plaza

Room 561

Jamaica, NY 11434

RE: Interpretation of FAR 61.56(d)

Dear Mr. Dennstaedt:

This is in response to your letter dated August 25, 2001, wherein you ask whether an airman can satisfy the flight review requirement under 14 C.F.R. (Federal Aviation Regulation [FAR]) 61.56 by passing a practical test to become a certified flight instructor (CFI), as required by FAR 61.183.

Under FAR 61.56(c)(1), one may not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, he has "accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor." Under FAR 61.56(c)(2), the airman must receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor certifying that he has satisfactorily completed the review. Under FAR 61.56(a), a flight review must include: (1) a review of the current general operating and flight rules of Part 91; and (2) a review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.

Under FAR 61.56(d), however, the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(c)(1) does not apply to one who has "passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate rating, or operating privilege."

The issue you raise is whether passing a practical test to become a CFI can fall within the exception to the flight review requirement that is provided by FAR 61.56(d). Under FAR 183(h), to be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating, the applicant must "pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought." The FAA Practical Test Standards (PTS) for the airplane flight instructor examiner (sic) requires that the examiner ensure that the flight instructor applicant has the "ability to perform the procedures and maneuvers included in the standards to at least the commercial pilot skill level."

Thus, the instructor has broad discretion in conducting a flight review. A CFI practical test encompasses the demonstration of various basic maneuvers that an instructor is likely to cover in a flight review. Incorporating a flight review into the CFI practical test could be accomplished, therefore, with little, if any difficulty.

Accordingly, a CFI practical test will not per se fulfill the flight review requirement. A practical test for a CFI rating under FAR 61.183, taken within 24 months of a prior flight review, can readily meet the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(d), however, if the examiner is satisfied that a flight review endorsement can be given. To ensure that the CFI applicant gets credit for successful completion of the flight review, however, he or she should ask the examiner to conduct the CFI oral and practical test so as to satisfy the flight review requirements as well, and to make a logbook endorsement for the flight review upon completion of the examination.

If you have additional inquiries, please contact Zachary M. Berman of this office at (718) 553-3258.

Sincerely,



Loretta E. Alkalay

 

[JAFI]

One point to ponder, you can ask the examiner/inspector to include the BFR PRIOR to the CFI check ride beginning. Some do, some will not. This can be done if the examiner/inspector is willing. It is a seprate event (CFI ride and BFR) that is done at the same time.

When you wish to do more than one thing in a check ride, it works best and is proper to let the examiner/inspector know what you wish to do well in advance of the ride. You want no surprises, give them the same courtesy.

JAFI

 

[Ralgha]

Yeah, the FAA has deemed that the CFI rides don't count for BFRs.

Personally I find that the stupidest ruling ever. The FAR rule says a pilot proficiency check counts as a BFR, yet the FAA has said that the CFI ride is not a pilot proficiency check. That means I should be able to take a CFI ride, crash the airplane during the ride, and still get my ticket as long as I can teach it well.

 

[paulsalem]

So you get your CFI, proving you have the knowledge to, among other things, give a BFR.

However, just because you prove that you have the knowledge to give a BFR, doesn't me you have the knowledge required for a completion of a bfr.

I GET IT NOW!!

You're not safe to fly unless you have a 0 hour pilot in the left seat trying to kill you.

 

[JAFI]

Paul and Ralgha, a BFR is demonstrating flying knowledge and ability while the CFI ride is demonstrating TEACHING ability. Some examiners (on the CFI ride) do most of the flying and have the "New Instructor" do all the talking. So it is not always a demonstration of the pilots ability but, can be if the applicant lets the examiner know what they what to apply for before the ride.
If you do not like the Eastern Region Legal interpitation (that A-Squared copied) then why don't you ask for an interpitation from the Head Legal person in Washington D.C.

JAFI

 

[Ralgha]

Paul and Ralgha, a BFR is demonstrating flying knowledge and ability while the CFI ride is demonstrating TEACHING ability. Some examiners (on the CFI ride) do most of the flying and have the "New Instructor" do all the talking. So it is not always a demonstration of the pilots ability but, can be if the applicant lets the examiner know what they what to apply for before the ride.
If you do not like the Eastern Region Legal interpitation (that A-Squared copied) then why don't you ask for an interpitation from the Head Legal person in Washington D.C.

JAFI

If you don't have the knowledge, you can't teach it. An examiner that does all the flying is being negligent. The plain truth is that you must be able to fly to be a flight instructor. You will have to stop the student from doing anything unsafe, and if it progresses beyond, you have to be able to intervene and bring it back to safety. If you can not fly the airplane far beyond the BFR level, then you are not cut out to be an instructor. Any examiner that cares will be evaluating the applicants flying ability as well as their teaching ability, regardless of what the PTS says. Don't believe me? Take a CFI ride, consistantly perform below commercial standards, but explain and teach everything great. Think you'll pass the ride?

If you read the CFI PTS, it says that the applicant will perform all tasks to the commercial pilot skill level. That line right there means the FAA does care about the flying ability of the applicant, even if they don't back it up with their interps.

I'm not going to waste my time asking for a legal interpretation. I know what their stance is, you don't have to tell me what it is. I'm simply saying that their stance is flawed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Look, you can whine about it, and, of course, from a practical standpoint a CFI is proving his piloting ability. But that's too bad. In this case, there's some regulatory consistency that may not make practical sense.

From a pure regulation standpoint, the FAR treats instructor certificates separately from pilot certificates. Staring with

==============================
§ 61.1 Applicability and definitions.
(a) This part prescribes:
(1) The requirements for issuing =pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates= and ratings; the conditions under which those certificates and ratings are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those certificates and ratings.
(2) The requirements for issuing =pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor= authorizations; the conditions under which those authorizations are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those authorizations.
(3) The requirements for issuing =pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor= certificates and ratings for persons who have taken courses approved by the Administrator under other parts of this chapter.
==============================

The differentiation continues throughout the FAR and general FAA policy with amazing consistency, from medical certificate requirements (a CFI doesn't need one unless he's also acting as PIC) to the requirement to have each certificate available when exercising that certificate's privileges to the requirement that, in order to teach in an aircraft, a CFI must have both "A pilot certificate =and= flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating" (61.195(b)(1). One may exist, but it would be hard to find an FAR that =does= treat the flight instructor certificate as a pilot certificate.

So, the bottom line is that FAA treats "pilot certificates" and "operating privileges" differently than "instructor certificates" and "instructing privileges".

In the case of 61.56(d), the regulation talks about a "=pilot= proficiency check ... for a =pilot= certificate, rating, or operating privilege...." A CFI certificate is not a pilot certificate and the privilege of teaching others is not an operating privilege.

The answer to the problem turns out to be pretty simple. While obtaining a CFI certificate doesn't =automatically= count as a BFR, the chances approach 100% that you will be called upon to demonstrate the piloting and knowledge skills that meet BFR standards. So, as the FAA recommends, when you take that CFI check, ask the examiner to sign off on a BFR as well. There should be no problem unless you run across one of those examiners who doesn't know the rule himself, in which case you can politely recommend recurrent training for him.

Sorry if asking the Examiner to sign a BFR is such a hardship to some.