CFI Checkride

[Blur]

I recently had a student fail a intial CFI ride because they were unfamilar with Part 23. I have never gone deeply into Part 23 with CFI applicants in the past either for FAA administered or DPE rides. This ride was with a DPE from a nearby school that is a big competetor of ours.

Any thoughts? Was I deficient in my instruction? Is Part 23 something a CFI student should be greatly familar with?

 

[woutlaw]

My copy of the the CFI PTS only mentions parts 1, 39, 43 61, 91 and NTSB 830, so I'd say the DPE was out of line for testing something that wasn't in the PTS.

Give your local FSDO a call and ask them about it.

14 CFR Part 23 is aircraft certification requirements or something, right? Crash worthiness, spin recovery, that sort of stuff?

 

[ajhbubs84]

Even though it is not in the PTS, I think "other areas the examiner deems necessary" is in the introduction somewhere.

 

[Blur]

Yes. It is certification of aircraft and the other stuff. It is not even in the pilots FAR books. I can only find in mechanic FAR books.

 

[woutlaw]

Even though it is not in the PTS, I think "other areas the examiner deems necessary" is in the introduction somewhere.

I couldn't find something along that line in the intro, which doesn't mean it's not there.

The PTS introduction does grant the examiner the ability to select one or more tasks for each area of operation in the interest of time and in whatever sequence they like.

I just took the initial CFI checkride last week, so I'm still a rank rookie, but I'd suggest calling the DPE and asking for more detail on what happened. (Not a bad practice after every checkride, pass or fail.)

I suppose it's possible that during the oral the student led the discussion into the 14CFR Part 23 realm then screwed something up there horribly, for example.

If it passes the smell test, so be it. If not, talk to the FSDO. It might not be the first time the issue has cropped up.

My DPE for the initial has a pretty poor reputation and several instructors have complained to the local FSDO about the way he's conducted everything from private to initial CFI rides in the past. The FSDO, apparently, has spoken with him about some of those problems and I can only assume he's working on them.

I managed to survive the ride, but felt his abilities as an examiner were borderline and wouldn't send a student to him by choice.

Good luck! I'm curious what the DPE's thinking was so I can store it away for when I start training CFIs in a couple of years.

 

[nosehair]

What is actually printed on the Notice of Disapproval?
Quite often I have noticed that what the student says is not what is printed on the pink slip.
If "FAR 23" is printed on the pink slip, then you have a case with the FSDO.

 

[Blur]

The Notice of Disapproval only states "Oral Exam." Unfortunately this means to re-endorse the student we must go over every (oral) requirement for the Practial Test.

I talked with the examiner. He couldn't give me any definate reason. "I don't think he was ready," was his repeated phrase. The examiner admitted that Part 23 is where they ended the checkride.

After talking with the student and examiner the final questions went something like this:

Examiner: If you have inoperative equipment is the aircraft airworthy?

Student: No unless you can defer it per an MEL; if you don't have an MEL you must check 91.205 to make sure it is not a requirement for day VFR and if not follow 91.213 to make it airworthy.

Examiner: What if it is a fuel pump.

Student: That is required to be operative for airworthiness.

Examiner: It is not in 91.213. Show me where the FARs say it is required.

Student: (Student looks in FARs with no sucess)

Examiner: What are you going to do?

Student: I'll call our Director of Maintenance for advise.

Examiner: He is unavailable.

Student: I'll ask any of the local mechanics at the field for clarification.

Examiner: None are available.

Student: I'll call our Director or Training or Director of Operations.

Examiner: They are unavailable. The FAA is closed. What are you going to do?

Student: I won't fly the airplane because it is unairworthy.

Examiner: This checkride is over. You would need to reference Part 23 to see if it is required for certification. You needed to show me where it is required.

Student: I've never looked at Part 23. I don't have it in my FARs; where is it?

Examiner: You can get it off the FAA website................


From what I understand you would need Part 23 from the year the aircraft was certified to be completely accurate. You would also need to check the Type Certificate Data Sheet to see what the FAA required the manufacturer to install and have working upon the aircraft certification.

I called the FAA and talked with two different Operations Inspectors. They both said they would never get into Part 23 on a CFI ride or fail a student on this area. One FAA guy said he has high regard for the examiner and thinks he always gives fair checkrides. He doesn't think there will be any biased between the schools and he plans to have us keep this examiner in the examiner pool for our CFI checkrides. The other FAA guy told me, "Why don't you become an examiner and you can give his students checkrides?"

I also talked to two other DPEs and they suggested I write a letter of complaint to the FAA. One said, "I'm not surprised." An airline pilot fueling his GA plane on the ramp approached the student before the checkride and said, "Good luck! These guys are jerks! If you are not enrolled in their program you don't have a great chance of passing." (I wish I knew who this guy was, I try to get more info from him.)

During the checkride the Examiner also talked negatively about our local DPE and talked down about other local schools. He had nothing but good things to say to the student (and me on the phone) about both their program and a nearby 2 year program that is a feeder program for thier 4 year degree. I think his conduct was VERY UNPROFESSIONAL!

I'm at a loss of what to do. I really don't want to send CFI students back to this examiner but if I make too big of an issue I'm afraid our POI will get irritated with me and could make my life difficult.

Any suggestions?

 

[SPilot]

I've got no suggestions other than to step carefully. Dont risk annoying anyone you might need a fair treatment from in the future.

If I were to answer the question: is fuelpump required?, I'd look for equipment list in the AFM/POH. Many equipment lists include notes about "required", "optional", "if installed" and so on.

(2) The inoperative instruments and equipment are not --
(i) Part of the VFR-day type certification instruments and equipment prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations under which the aircraft was type certificated;
(ii)Indicated as required on the aircraft's equipment list, or on the Kinds of Operations Equipment List for the kind of flight operation being conducted;
(iii) Required by §91.205 or any other rule of this part for the specific kind of flight operation being conducted; or
(iv) Required to be operational by an airworthiness directive; and
(3) The inoperative instruments and equipment are --

Considering the student suggested asking somebody else repeatedly, I can see why the examiner said that the candidate was not ready. I think most examiners like to see that we demonstrate independence and ability to make our own judgements and interpretations of the regulations. Asking the nearest mechanic for advice in basic matters which are important for the candidate to operate the airplane legally as part of his PIC responsibility, does not inspire immediate confidence during a checkride, although it would be the sensible thing to do outside of a testing environment.

Remember the PTS states the examiners are allowed alot of "leeway" in their overall assessment of the candidate. So even if you strongly disagree that he asked questions about Part 23 (which is not a PTS requirement as far as I can remember), you will most likely get nowhere with a complaint.

 

[nosehair]

Examiner: If you have inoperative equipment is the aircraft airworthy?

Student: No unless you can defer it per an MEL; if you don't have an MEL you must check 91.205 to make sure it is not a requirement for day VFR and if not follow 91.213 to make it airworthy.

Examiner: What if it is a fuel pump.

Student: That is required to be operative for airworthiness.

Examiner: It is not in 91.213. Show me where the FARs say it is required.

Student: (Student looks in FARs with no sucess)

Here is where it went wrong. I agree with the examiner. It seems, from reading this and other boards, that the typical response to required equipment is "91.205". I understand the confusion because of the heading of the regulation: "91.205 U.S. Airworthiness certificates: Instrument and Equipment requirements"
Sounds pretty impresive, doesn't it. If it said "Additional Instrument and equipment requirements" it would be much easier to understand. That's what it is. It is one of the listed requirements in 91.213(d).

That's what we should be teaching. That is the instructor's job, and he is failing, because there is such a wide-spread lack of knowledge and understanding of this regulation.

If he had responded to the question with 91.213(d) and under(2)(i) "Part of the VFR-day type certification instruments and equipment prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations under which the aircraft was type certificated"
That's not the VFR day instrument and equipment required by 91.205, which is repeated in 91.213(d)(2)(iii).

That (91.213(d)(2)(i)) is the equipment required by regulation at the time of initial certification. Basicly, it is the naked nuts-and-bolts of the flying machine to get certified. This required equipment can be found in the Type Certificate Data Sheet.

Additional required equipment can be found in thhe POH as required by 91.213(d)(2)(ii), then the 91.205 stuff, 91.213(d)(2)(iii) and finally, (iv) required by an AD.

There is the non MEL airplane airworthiness checklist. That is what the GA CFI should have on the tip of his tounge just like many other bits of knowledge. He didn't know how to work that list. Many do not. But it is a required task in the Private (as well as CFI) PTS:
Task B: Airworthiness requirements
1.b. procedures and limitations for determining airworthiness of the airplane with inoperative instruments and equipment with and without an MEL.

The examiner's reference to part 23 comes from the 91.213(d)(2)(i) part.
That is the reg used to determine parts during certification. The required equipment can be found on the TCDS.

 

[gsrcrsx68]

Student: That is required to be operative for airworthiness.

Examiner: It is not in 91.213. Show me where the FARs say it is required.

It seems like the examiner went for some misdirect. I would have(and will if I get this question) went straight to 91.7(b) and said I determined it to be unairworthy. End of story.

Sadly, your students response,"that it is required to be operative for airworthiness" is a corrrect answer, especially when backed with 91.7(b) instead of getting dragged to part 23 or anywhere else.

Ask a mechanic about something that is PIC responsibility? Not me. I used to be a lineguy. I was always amazed at how many people would ask for flying advice. Probably not too impressive to the examiner.

Suggestions? Prep him out and let him try again. That is all there is to do. If you manage to piss on the examiner somehow it will come back to you in the end.