Cessna 414 or 421 - which would you buy?

[flying_gringo]

I've got a guy with a wild hair who wants to buy a cabin class pressurized twin. I want your thoughts... its been a while since I've flown anything like them, so I need feedback on what to look for.

Either one I told him is going to bleed him dry financially - and he's willing to go ahead anyhow. So financials aside - tell me about performance and bugs to look for. Which is better in your opinion, and why

The mission is mainly flying in the SW US and some mexico with his family and friends.

I appreciate your input.

fg

 

[Dude]

Whatever you do, don't buy a 421. I'm not sure what you should get. 414 414 414 414 414 414 414 414 414 414 414. The 421 is a good a/c, but the motors are a pain to work with and the 414 is a delight to own and operate compared to the 421.

 

[EagleRJ]

GTSIO-520s on the 421 are fragile engines. You have to treat them with a lot of care or else they do expensive things.

I've never flown a 414, but they look like nice planes.

 

[Wiggums]

Neither, how about a nice Aerostar. Or one of those great, low-time Dukes. Say, is it normal for the mechanics to run when you taxi a Duke onto the FBO ramp?

 

[IP076]

How long will he by flying it for?

I'd think one could come close to justifying the aquisition cost of a PC12 or the like with the lower operating costs, higher speed, more room..... Buy a new one and most of the maint may be covered by warranty and save money also. However, you'd have to justify spending close to 2.5 mil more initially.....

 

[414Flyer]

414's

They are both good planes, but as to which one is better..That depends on factors like money, and how many people you plan to carry.

It will cost more to operate the 421, and they are not that much faster. They can carry more load, and lots of fuel. However I think 421 long term operating costs are pretty darn close to a 90 model King Air.

They are both stable IFR platforms, and not difficult to fly. Both need to have the engines babied, and even more so on the 421 due to its gearing.

If you are only looking at 2-4 people in the plane total at any time, I would look at a 340.

 

[bigD]

Or one of those great, low-time Dukes.

Those planes are awesome! And I see plenty on the market for right around a hundred grand. Boy, I can't imagine why people aren't buying these things in droves!

 

[Pirate at Forty]

After flying Barons for 12 years, I bought a 421C just over 3 months ago. What I've learned to date: Expect 40 gph and 200 kts at 65% power and 17,000 feet. If you run it like that and are gentle with the engines, you should get to TBO (1600 Hrs). They are roomy, comfortable, quiet, stable, trucky (compared to the Barons), and passengers love 'em. They have more systems that require more maintenance and monitering than nearly any other piston twin. They are less expensive to buy and operate than a turbo prop.

All I know about the 414 is that they need quite a bit more runway for takeoff. The cabins are essentially the same and the 414 will be some slower, but burn less fuel.

Before buying, I'd recommend a prebuy at a shop that specializes in 400 series Cessnas. The only ones I'm aware of are Air Impressions in Waco, TX and another in Defiance, OH. There ar a lot of pitfalls for an unwary buyer. It took me over a year to find that one that I wanted.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

If he's thinking of a new aircraft, I'd go with an Adam (I think it's the A500), the piston twin. Or, if he can wait and will spend $1.6 Mill., wait for the Adam light jet, which I believe will be the 1st one on the market.

Cliff
DTW

 

[flying_gringo]

thanks for the responses - what's the average cost of those engines on the 421? I've been hearing around $70K / side by the time your done with an overhaul. any word on that?

and don't get me wrong - I'd love a PC12, a king air, or nice entry level jet - its just I don't think the budget is there for those... and I don't want s/n0001 of anything.

fg

 

[Pirate at Forty]

Labor, new turbo chargers, hoses, baffles, mounts, exhaust, etc, etc, will likely get near $70k.

http://www.ramaircraft.com/gtsio520n.htm

 

[StaySeated]

Don't both of them have an emergency ad relating to a small problem that causes the wings to seperate from the fuselage in flight? I know that they had an ead related to the exhaust buring the wings off but I thought they also had a big prob with the spar.

 

[sqwkvfr]

Don't both of them have an emergency ad relating to a small problem that causes the wings to seperate from the fuselage in flight? I know that they had an ead related to the exhaust buring the wings off but I thought they also had a big prob with the spar.

I'm surprised this didn't come up sooner.

From what I understand, there's a forthcoming Airworthiness Directive requiring modifications to wing spars or something like that. I don't think that it's been issued yet, but some foreign governmental aviation authorities have already done it or plan to do it. Politics is holding the US AD up, but you can almost bank on it happening. For what I've read, the cost of compliance is between 45 to 75 thousand dollars.

Look through the classifieds....there's a buttload of these things for sale...ever wonder why?

If it's gonna be a financial hardship for this guy just to buy the plane, he needs to RUN away from these.......for now, anyway.

 

[AeroDMB]

Neither - Both MX hogs...they are in our shop all the time.

Look into a used TBM 700, fast, they haul, pressurized, advanced, PT6, etc.

Or

Used PC12 like that was mentioned earlier, however, the acquisition cost is much higher even for a used one.

Look at the Piper Cheyenne, nice bird or even a 400LS, even nicer.

 

[350DRIVER]

Both are safe airplanes but the 421 is a mx nightmare. The 421 that I use to fly had more problems than I ever thought was possible with any one airplane, many flights I wondered how it was even 135 certified. The pressurization was always off and never functioned normally, dives and spikes were the norm and could never get up high enough to get the fuel burn to a reasonable figure. It was standard to see the cabin alt light come on since cabin would like to exceed 10,000...I would talk him into some older C90 or something along those lines if I were you.. Much more mx/user friendly and easier to operate. The engines are more than just touchy and they will do expensive things as previously stated. 375HP a side was nice when they did as they were suppose to do. 205 at 65% is a tad deceptive.

good luck

3 5 0

 

[Sphincter Boy]

I'd get the P Navajo over the 421.

 

[mizzouguy]

The 414 is a pretty nice airplane to fly but if that wing spar ad comes up it would be pretty expensive. The FAA told us the other day it is not a definate thing and if it is it will be a while before it is in place. We fly two and don't have too much problem with them. A King Air 90 might be a better airplane

 

[DAS at 10/250]

The wing spar AD is possible but total BS. In April 1999, a C421 had an inflight seperation of a wing while in the descent for KOKC. The airplane had a hard landing 18 years prior and the repair was deemed as inadequate. There is no evidence to support a fleetwide AD. However, Cessna is pushing the AD to retire the older 400 series airplanes. The FAA expected cost is $45,000, but the field estimates are coming back as $60,000. The rumor is that the AD will also emcompass the 300 series as well.

If your budget will allow get a C90. I don't think I'd want to fly any $100K cabin twin.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001205X00460&ntsbno=FTW99FA123&akey=1

 

[414Flyer]

Actually it was a C402 freighter it happened to, Texas Air Charter (name at the time)

 

[deadstick]

I'm pretty sure that wing AD will not hit the "short-nosed" 414's. I think those were out until 1976.