Cell Phone Usage

[Smokehouse]

I am a student pilot in a Cessna 172R, soomeone asked me the other day if you were allowed to use a cell phone up there, or if the restriction were only on airlines. I had heard that the restriction was in place so that you had to use their phones....

Is this truly a restriction on any aircraft, if so what kinds of disruptions does it cause, and no I am not wanting to fly and chat on the phone, I am just curious.

 

[jergar999]

The ban on cell phone usage is an FCC not FAA restriction. The phone might work, and probably won't interfere (expecially on a plane with steam gauges) with anything, but the phone will link up with every repeater tower within line of sight, tying up multiple lines for your one call.

 

[chperplt]

but the phone will link up with every repeater tower within line of sight, tying up multiple lines for your one call.

Not true at all.

The phone line will jump from station to station so fast, the carrier will not be able to charge you. Has nothing to do with phone lines.

The cell phone companies were to ones that asked the FCC to ban cell phone use in the air for that reason. Since 9/11, a couple of them (verizon being one) has petitioned the FCC to remove the ban.

 

[Smokehouse]

I wonder if the Nextel Direct Connect works the same way.......


so basically it really wont effect the planes instruments, its more that the phone company will have a hard time tracking your usage???

I mean if I wanted to fly over the house, would I be able to pick up the cell phone and call home and say hey look outside at about 2000'

Is that legal???

 

[wxman13]

FAR Section 91.21:

"(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used."
(Bolds added)

This means that if you're flying VFR, you can use a cell phone, though doing so is still discouraged since it distracts you from your other tasks as a pilot. If you're flying IFR, even in your 172, you cannot legally use a cell phone, since it is a portable electronic device. Subpart (b)(5) allows for certain exceptions when you can determine that a given device won't cause interference. This is up to you to test in your airplane and document (for the sake of any complaint brought against you, e.g. in an accident where cell phone use may have been a factor).

However, one of the tower controllers at Walla Walla told me that he would much rather you call the tower on your cell phone from the plane if you have a radio failure and you're IFR than try to tough it out. I'm not an aviation attorney, but I suspect any violation of 91.21 in such an instance would be excused, since it would presumably help you to land safely in an emergency situation.

That's my 2 cents,
Peter

 

[Timebuilder]

I suspect any violation of 91.21 in such an instance would be excused, since it would presumably help you to land safely in an emergency situation.

Since comm failure is an emergency, you as the PIC are already granted the ability to ignore ANY regulation, as long as it is germane to do so in the handling of the emergency.

 

[Flying Illini]

one of the tower controllers at Walla Walla told me that he would much rather you call the tower on your cell phone from the plane if you have a radio failure and you're IFR than try to tough it out.

I've heard the same thing.
I frequently use my cell phone to recieve clearance void times. You can do this while sitting on the ramp w/all passengers aboard and briefed as well as have the engine started, that way you can be off in less than 5 minutes if need be. W/the engine at idle the FSS briefer said that there is no interference or background noise (who knows about at cruise power but if you are NORAD you might as well give the phone call a try). Just be sure to have the proper phone number for the local FSS otherwise your phone will dial up the one in your home area if you just use 1800wxbrief.

 

[avbug]

Since comm failure is an emergency, you as the PIC are already granted the ability to ignore ANY regulation, as long as it is germane to do so in the handling of the emergency.

Oooh! Absolutely not true, and a very big mistake to assume.

For one thing, any time you are involved in an "emergency," you may be required to defend your involvement and actions. It may or may not be an emergency, and the extent to which you deviate may certainly come under scrutiny.

For another, you do not have carte blanche authority to deviate from any rule or regulation. Only that necessary to meet the requirements of the emergency, and you may be required to justify your actions. If a determination is made that you actions were not justified, you are indeed liable.

Further, the stipulation in 14 CFR 91.3(a) pertaining to deviation in an emergency, is applicable to Part 91, not to FCC regulation.

In a true emergency, use of a cell phone is certainly not going to result in a penalty, but it's very wrong make the assumption that anything you constitute to be an emergency authorizes you to deviate from any rule or regulation. It just isn't so.

On the former subject of this thread, it's not about cell companies not being able to track you. It's about lighting up several cell towers at one time. Coverage areas and tower arrangements are predicated on reception by one tower at a time, and are predicated on the specific areas and terrain features. Often people ask why they can climb a mountain and use their phone, but not use it in the airplane. It's not a function of strictly altitude above the valley surface, but of being in a positioin which is outside the design coverage for the towers.

Use your cell phone in an airplane, and you're in a position that no engineer could possibly have conceived when setting up the cell network. Cell phones can be shut out of the system, a greater battery drain can occur, you can be billed or penalized (it does happen), and you can cause service interruptions for others.

It's not just cell phones in airplanes, but any personal electronic device. A CD player puts out frequencies that interfere with VHF navigation, and incidents have been reported of navigational interference by cell phones, CD players, personal computers, and other devices.

 

[dmspilot00]

Just as a side note, on a TV documentary that focused on electronic interference of airplane systems, there was a pilot or other industry expert who said on a certain airliner (forget which one), the engine fire warnings would routinely activate whenever somebody used their cell phone.

 

[Timebuilder]

It may or may not be an emergency, and the extent to which you deviate may certainly come under scrutiny.

and

For another, you do not have carte blanche authority to deviate from any rule or regulation. Only that necessary to meet the requirements of the emergency, and you may be required to justify your actions. If a determination is made that you actions were not justified, you are indeed liable.

That's why I said

as long as it is germane to do so in the handling of the emergency.

With that caveat, I believe my advice stands up. As long as what you do is germane to the handling of the emergency, you are in the clear. Certainly, you will come under scrutiny. That's why so many pilots fear "declaring" an emergency. They don't want the scrutiny.

When dealing with an emergency, I think it would be very unwise to be governed by concern that a deviation might not be considered necessary in 20/20 hindsight.

 

[boeingav8r]

Smokehouse....back to your original question regarding the legality of cellphone usage in the air. Without doing any research, I would guess that it is NOT allowed. But who is going to catch you if you make a call anyway? Just don't call your buddy from the aircraft on your way back from the practice area telling him you think you passed your checkride and the examiner is still in the right seat!!

Anyway, the reception is so poor up there that your call will more than likely be very brief before it drops off completely. I wouldn't even worry about it because the reception is so that it's impossible to just "fly around and chat on the phone" as you stated earlier. There are certain areas in the US that have better reception. For instance, I've been able to make very brief calls over a certain area in the northwest at FL330 on a fairly consistant basis. Also, I find it extremely handy when you're 15 minutes from blocking in and need to notify your ride to come pick you up at the airport.

Anyway, back to legality...I believe it is an FCC restriction. I'm sure the airlines aren't complaining anyway because they want to get your $$ by forcing you to use their onboard phones. The airlines sometimes claim it is to prevent possible interference with their navigation systems or whatever. I had a college instructor in aircraft electronic systems that stated there is absolutely no interference whatsoever between cellphones and aircraft nav/com systems due to the cellphones using different frequencies.
I agree with chperplt....the cellphone companies frown on using their phones in the air because they are unable to properly bill you due to your call jumping from station to station so quickly.

 

[metrodriver]

Cell phones do interfere with flight instruments, even steamgauges. All electronic (computerized) equipment has a clockfrequency, and its harmonics sometimes are the same frequencies as our com/ nav freq's. I have had it in a metro, and there are many instances known and publicized (even on this board) of crews having had problems with nav instruments, or blocking com freq's (happened in the LAX area).
The FCC rule is for blocking a large area of cell towers.
My phone doesn't get a reception over 7000', I'm interested to know why on the 9-11 flights and one of the posters above calls from 30.000+ feet could be made. My theory is that the fuselage of the airplane acts as an antenna and uses some other com/ nav antenna to transmit a lot more powerful signal than the cell phone can put out. (this was the case in the LAX area where grandma blocked the com freq's to tell grand daughter she was on her way).
And if I would lose my comms, I would certainly use the cell phone. I know one guy who did and ATC was happy he did. If your plane is equipped with airphone or satphone systems, you might consider using those first

 

[Eagleflip]

I know for fact that cellphone useage in the cockpit can cause comm anomalies--I've heard the digital transmission bursts over the intercom and during transmissions (on the ground with the parking brake set, of course) as well as just during standby.

Given other experiences in the Airbus, I'd venture that cell usage in the cabin produces the same problem.

This is not simply a personal preference issue--there are broader implications of using these phones inflight.

 

[dmspilot00]

I had a college instructor in aircraft electronic systems that stated there is absolutely no interference whatsoever between cellphones and aircraft nav/com systems due to the cellphones using different frequencies.

Sounds like BS and a very dangerous assumption to me. What college is this?

The lights and the stereo in my house certainly are on different frequencies, but I can hear clicking sounds over the stereo when I turn the lights on and off.

The #1 electronic device that interferes with aircraft instruments/controls is Laptop computers, and unlike cell phones they do not even send out intentional signals.

Listen to metrodriver, he seems to know what he's talking about, unlike your prof.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

If I'm IMC under an IFR flight plan and I have radio failure and my cell phone works, rest assured I don't care what reg I might or might not be breaking I'm calling someone. This thinking of not breaking a regulation in an adverse situation is the sort of thinking that could get someone killed. I am whole heartedly in favor of upholding each and every regulation in the book but sometimes things happen that cause you to have to cross that line. Think outside of the box if you have too or you feel as PIC that it's the safest way. Someone show me a time this has happened and someone was violated. If I were an inspector from the FAA investigating a loss of radio communications and then found out the guy had a cell phone that worked I would get him/her for careless and reckless. Get on the ground SAFELY while putting as few people in danger as possible and then worry about whatever regulations you broke.

 

[B190Captain]

I have experienced on several occasions cell phones actually interfering with ATC communication frequencies. I even heard a conversation once on a ATC Center frequency.

 

[Slim]

I, too, have heard cell phone conversations on ATC frequencies. When I heard it, I called the F/A and had her make an announcement to ask all passengers to check their cell phones a second time. It turns out one passenger stowed their phone, but it did not shut off automatically as it was supposed to.

Boeingav8r, your college instructor is an idiot. Transmitters which are too close together, and not properly grounded, can interfere with other transmitters regardless of frequency. I am a retired Army signal officer and have experienced bleedover between VHF and FM radios. The first time I heard it was SAT tower transmitting on VHF and I was receiving on a FM radio. I don't know what the tower frequency was at the time. I was receiving the transmission around 88.0/89.0. A VHF radio can be tuned to a high FM frequency and the voice portion of the transmission can be heard. It's not clear, but is understandable.

This college instructor should know that every electronic device emits an electronic signature. In the military, that's what target acquisition radar looks for...the electronic signature of a device. That electronic signature from CD players, laptop computers, cell phones, can create problems.

Fly safe!

 

[dgs]

Sceintific Research

For everything you ever wanted to know, but were afraid to ask, about cell phone usage and electromagnetic interference with an aircraft, including some great anecdotal evidence:
http://www.bluecoat.org/reports/Ladkin_97_EMI.pdf

The report is a little dated, but we are still flying the same aircraft that experienced these same problems, with even more cell phones in the cabin.

From personal experience, I can hear the interference in my radio if I'm listening to them while on talking on the cell phone at the gate. If you want to test the EMI (Electro-Magnetic Interference) of your cell phone in a benign environment, key it up while sitting at your computer with your external speakers turned up. My cell phone makes my computer speakers hum like a big dog.

There is a HUGE difference between EMI/RMI (Radio Magnetic Interference) and frequency conflicts and any EE instructor who doesn't know the difference should be banned from teaching.

Now imagine being with an approach controller with a heavy load who is spouting instructions at a mile a minute and you hear, "jetBlue 25, turn right to HUMMMMMM, descend to HUMMMMMMMMM, traffic at your HUMMMMMMMMMMM. Not exactly maximizing safety, is it?

That all having been said, if there was an emergency need to use the phone (i.e. NORDO), I’d probably give it a try and watch carefully for bad nav signals.

 

[bobbysamd]

Cell phone story

I heard about an aircraft that was in IMC and was in terminal holding. The aircraft was running low on fuel, but the frequency was extremely congested and despite all efforts the crew could not get a word in edgewise to report their situation. It turned out that one of the crew had a portable phone. He dialed up ATC on it, told it who they were and their problem, and got an approach clearance.

I don't know or recall if they had squawked 7700 or considered it.

 

[ShawnC]

Just don't call your buddy from the aircraft on your way back from the practice area telling him you think you passed your checkride and the examiner is still in the right seat!!

During my friends Commercial ride with a particularly notorious DE in Daytona, the DE pulled his cell phone while they were on their way back to DAB and talk on it.

My friend asked him isn't that against the rules, the DE said it was ok.