Captain goes below mins?

[210FR8DOG]

I've pondered this question and I know what I would say in an interview and I know what I would really do. What is the "correct"answer?

On the ILS, no runway in sight, captain goes below minimums, what do you do?

 

[jmt]

don't wrestle with captain. Just call the missed approach to the tower.

 

[Alaskaairlines]

Sounds like a very good idea! Captain then has no choice other than go missed, you might get a little heat from him though....

 

[TonyC]

On the ILS, no runway in sight, captain goes below minimums, what do you do?

I can relate to you the experience of a right-seater (military type) that found himself in this situation, and said nothing. Metal was crunched, people died, and he found himself sitting at the wrong end of a long table where everybody had a glass of water except him. Why didn't he say something? Why didn't he DO something?

It was probably only his youth (ignorance) and a recognition of the culture that existed at that time (Captain is GOD, never question the Captain - - you know, the pre-CRM era) that saved his career, i.e., that allowed him to continue to fly afterwards.

I had the opportunity to fly right seat for him after he upgraded, and he shared important lessons with me. The most important: SPEAK UP If you see something wrong, SAY SO.

If he had managed to say "GO AROUND," he might have saved an airplane and human lives. Two simple words to which we train a reflexive response. "GO AROUND"

What if he had been wrong in saying GO AROUND? What if the Captain had had the runway in sight but just forgot to call it? GO AROUND. Execute the procedure, climb away from the ground, talk about it later. Compare the price of an "unnecessary" go-around with the price of not executing one that results in catastrophe. No comparison.

If there's ANY question in your mind while you're sitting in the comfort of your easy chair what you should do in this situation, I implore you to search your soul carefully. Don't put yourself in the situation where you have to delay making a critical call. It must be reflexive. The hesitation could cost you your life.

It's cut and dried. GO AROUND.

don't wrestle with captain. Just call the missed approach to the tower.

I must respectfully disagree with this approach. First, there's no need to assume you'd have to wrestle with the Captain. Perhaps he's just making an honest mistake and needs an immediate reminder.

Second, ones approach in this time-critical scenario must take the form of a specific, DIRECT input. Trying to induce a repsonse by offering a clever or witty HINT might not work at all (remember, the Captain's headwork is already questionable), or it might not work IN TIME.

"GO AROUND!"

 

[Gulfstream 200]

"minimums"
" below minimums no runway"

"BELOW MINIMUMS NO RUNWAY"

after that assume incapacitation and do the missed yourself.

that "call the tower" suggestion is just great....Im sure the accident investigators will wonder why you called the tower then crashed on the runway...

you're not paid to rat the guy out to the tower, you're paid to safely fly the plane.

 

[Rick1128]

First of all, it is a standard type interview question. You can plan on gvetting a question or two where there is NO right answer. One of the things they interviewers are looking for is your thinking abilities and mind set. Also how you anlyize and deal with problems.

 

[Singlecoil]

I agree, they are just testing you to see if you would speak up in this situation.
My answer would be, "Minimums, missed approach."
"MINIMUMS, MISSED APPROACH."
"MY AIRPLANE, MISSED APPROACH," as you add power and pull back on the yoke. Then they might ask, "You would take over the plane?" My answer would be, "Yes, the captain is either incapacitated or has a problem with his instruments. There isn't any reason to go below minimums." Leave it at that, don't say, "Unless we were low on fuel," because you shouldn't get yourself in that situation anyway.

 

[TurboS7]

First thing you need to do is read the regs. I would call the lights as I would have them in sight and I would expect the captain to go down to 100 feet above the touchdown zone. Then I would be looking like crazy for the runway depending on where the wind is coming from. As long as he has the ILS nailed I am not worried. If at 100 feet I don't see the red terminating bars for the runway or if they are not installed I don't see the REIL's I will comply with the company procedure for a missed approach. Pushing the throttle forward is a great way to get everyone killed, during a tight approach the last thing you need are cowboys in the right seat. Generally I brief the low approach procedure because I am amazed how few people have done them and how few understand what is really going to happen. I come from a CATIIIA enviroment so I have seen a bunch of garbage. We are only CAT I and I am amazed how some of our FO's have never "been there."

 

[varicam]

[[/B]

TurboS7 is absolutely correct: Wrestling for the controls somewhere below 200' is a bad idea. Two pilots with different agendas manipulating the controls during a descent below 200 AGL is pretty scary. If you're stabilized and on profile, continuing the approach to landing might be safer than the alternatives. Any heavy jet with a pilot who's indecisive about starting a missed approach will probably touch down during the miss anyway. And, if you're not stabilized and not on profile, 200 agl is a little late to start fixing things.

Someone above mentioned that if you called out "missed approach" on the tower freq, the PIC would have no choice but to go around. Really?

 

[English]

okay, let's change the scenario a bit...let's say the captain goes 50 feet below minimums (MDA) in IMC on a circling approach. Is your answer different?

 

[TurboS7]

Take the distance from the end of the runway and times it by 3. That will put you on a three to one glide, as long as he is in those perimeters no problem he will catch the VASI as you come around. If the bust it was a couple of hundred feet that is another matter, at that point if you have to do that to maintain a visual you should miss, again as per the procedures, no big deal.

 

[English]

Turbos7,

So, you are saying it''s no big deal to go below MDA in IMC at Aspen or other mountanous airports while circling? Am I reading your post correctly?

 

[airbaker]

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance (If that's the case I'll claim fatigue, I just got done with a 16 hour day)....but I don't think you can start the circling maneuver (sp?) unless you're visual and remain visual with the landing threshold at all times. So if that's the case, you could never be in IMC during the actual circling; only during the step-downs to lead you to the circling minimums. Obviously, what you can't do is descend from the circling minimums until you're established at a point by which you can make a normal descent to the landing runway (also remaining within the prescribed radius for the catagory of a/c)

If I'm wrong, does anyone have that number for the truckdriving school, truckmaster; I think I'll need that!

 

[English]

airbaker,

I agree with everything you wrote (except for the stuff about the truck driving school).

This was a question I was asked recently at an interview. I've noticed several posters have stated that they'd let the captain continue to landing if on an ILS because there is course guidance. So, the question is, what if there is not course guidance? He/she goes 50 feet below MDA, what do you do? What if he/she goes another 50 feet, etc, all the while in IMC conditions?

 

[airbaker]

Tough question to answer, as I can see the other posters' points of not wanting aggressive manuevers on a heavy airplane with a lot of inertia. However, I'd probably have to assume incapacation as well and take over. (in fact during ground school at a former airline, we were told of an actual account of a DC-10 captain at AA "quietly" slumping over the controls during an ILS. The F/O clicked off the autopilot and hit TOGA, made the missed at 50' RA, and I believe the main wheels did skip the asphalt.) Now if he/she wasn't incapacitated, and just being a cowboy by ignoring call outs (like approach lights in sight, going 100' above tdze) I'm sure I could overpower the flying pilot and get the a/c pointing up again. Fortunately, 99.99% of us are professionals, and wouldn't let it get into a wrestling match at 200'.

Just my thoughts, your mileage may vary.

 

[TurboS7]

My first question is have you ever done a circling approach in a large aircraft at minimums in snow in the mountains with low visibility. Obviously you have not just by your answers. IF you are such a hot shot pilot that you can maintain your altitude exactly at MDA while looking outside doing a circling manuever then you must be really special. Give a captain a break,,,,I stand by my answer. Lets be real.

 

[TurboS7]

Rules and procedures don't keep you safe, using your brain does.

 

[TurboS7]

During the circling manuver you must be clear of clouds and technically cannot decend until you have the visual guidance to start the decent from the MDA to the touchdown zone. Very little circling is done with a large aircraft, with our 121 we cannot circle if the weather is below 1000 and 3, that takes the heat off of us.

 

[English]

No need to be so defensive here...

The question given was an INTERVIEW question.

Part 1

Your captain briefs that he/she plans to go 50 feet below MDA in IMC conditions on a circling approach. What do you do?

Part 2

What will you do when he/she actually goes 50 feet below in IMC?



I'm just surprised at some of the answers I read that stated they'd let the captain keep going since there was course guidance. Okay, there's no course guidance here, is the answer the same?

And Turbos7, we are not talking about unintentionally, inadvertently going 50 feet below MDA while circling in visual conditions. We are talking about going below minimums in IMC conditions to break out visually. I can't see how you think this is ok. Am I misreading your posts?

 

[TurboS7]

Diffrent story, intentionally going below minimums and briefing so is asking for trouble as you will not comply with the obstacle clearance established by Part 97. Can it be done safely, yes, if done properly, is it legal, no. What would my answer to the question be-NO WAY-not with me onboard.