Can someone please help?

[afar1]

Can someone please help?
This is for my nephew who was hired by American Eagle Airlines.
He is a 1000 hour pilot that became so overwhelmed with the volumes of data that he had to memorize in the Saab 340B class that he washed out of the Oral.
He did poorly on the TOLD Cards and systems.
He wanted this so bad that he almost gave up on a flying career.
I guess he may have freaked himself out.
He was deeply depressed for a long period of time and would not go out of his room as well.
He simply could not keep up.
He states that ground school class was at 7:00 am till 5:00 pm with a 45 minute ride back to his hotel.
By this time it is 6:00 pm and by the time he had dinner and a shower it was 8 or 8:30 which only left him 2 hours to study if was to get a good nights sleep and be up at 5:00 for the 6:00 shuttle.
Can anyone give him some inspiration and advice.
He is getting the feelers out again and is afraid of failing but is brave enough to try it again.

 

[falcondriver]

I know a very experienced pilot who gave up during ground school at PSA, I'm sure Eagle is the same way. He explained that they use the fire hose method of teaching. Not everbody is cut out to survive that type of training. I know I would have a lot of trouble going to a class like that. I would tell him to not worry about it and get back to flying.
We all have problems sooner or later.
Good Luck
FD

 

[avbug]

Afar,

I believe you're the one who wrote asking about why airlines force pilots into these terrible, difficult programs. The answer you received from me, and every other respondant was the same. They don't. The reason people wash out is that they shouldn't be there in the first place. Pilots should be prepared with some basic systems knowledge to begin with.

There is nothing overly difficult or arduous about training for the Saab, or any other entry level aircraft of it's type. Pilots should not expect to have information squeezed into them by osmosis. A certain amount of effort is required.

Tell your friend that there are other sections of aviation into which he can enter, and there are other chances at airline flying which will arise. In the mean time tell him to use this as motivation to study harder, and to prepare by learning basic aircraft performance and systems.

 

[afar1]

AvBug

Please ignore my posts in the furture.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Afar,

It sounds like you are looking for reassurance that the next airline will be a kinder and gentler version of the training. I have flown for commuters and a major airline and all the training is pretty much the same. A firehose!

It is not impossible but it does take commitment. If your nephew failed out, it was not the fault of the airline. Airlines have been training this way since the 40's.

You need to impress upon your nephew that he is not special, he is another number on a list coming through their training center. I have NEVER had a good nights sleep while in initial training for an airline, no one does. Most of the time you are in class from 8 am to 5 or 7 pm, a quick bite to eat and then hitting the books until 2 am or so and back at it again. A weekend off from class is NOT a weekend off from training. I normally took Saturday mornings off and then back at it SAt night and sunday afternoon to be ready for Mondays class. That is what it takes.

If this regime is too much for him maybe he should consider corporate flying. Getting a type on a corporate jet is much easier since you are the one paying for the training, It is still not easy but it is nothing like airline training. Now before I get all kinds of hate mail, I do have experience doing both, and I do know what I am talking about. A Citation or lear type is a walk in the park compared with new hire first officer training at a 121 air carrier.

I am not trying to be an a-hole about it but if your nephew want to fly for an airline he needs to realize that it takes 100% commitment during training, and nothing less will make it. My sim partner at the major was fresh out of the Navy flying the F-18 off of carriers. Airline training was even an eyeopener to him. His statement was "I thought the military was a fire hose until I got here"

If I were you I would support your nephew and help him through it, but DO NOT sugar coat it. He needs to realize what is expected of him and every other new hire. People make mistakes, we all have bad days. But expecting it to be like college or flight training at you local FBO will only result in the same problems.

When you come out of the initial training sleep deprived and looking like a zombie, then thats when you know you have got it right!

Good luck to him and let him know that he is not the first to be there. If it were easy anybody could do it! I have never met a pilot that couldn't make it through the training as long as they put 100% into it.

 

[avbug]

Afar1,

If you don't like the answers, perhaps you shouldn't post. Does it surprise you that virtually every respondant to your posts has the same reply? Do you simply keep asking until you get the answer you want?

If you don't want me to reply, don't ask the question. That should make it very simple for you.

Perhaps you could just put "everyone answer this but avbug" in your header...maybe that would be best. Problem is, I just don't read too good...too much parathion over the years, I guess.

 

[afar1]

AvBug,
It's not that I don't like the answers, it all pertains to your glib and gloomy remarks.
I will continue to ask questions and you will continue to ignore my posts.That should make it very simple for you ,and lay off the parathion...I guess

 

[avbug]

Oh no, mate. I will not "continue" to ignore your posts. I didn't ignore them before, and I won't ignore them now. If that's a problem, then don't post.

Glib and gloomy remarks? Would those be the ones stating that there's nothing unusual about this training, that training naturally forces out those who refuse to prepare, or who can't cut it? Or would that be remarks such as the fact that there is nothing particularly arduous or untoward about the training, and that it really isn't all that difficult?

Which ones were glib, and which were gloomy? Just for my own self-edification, you understand.

Your buddy didn't make it. That's unfortunate. However, I told you before, and will tell you again, tell your buddy to use it as motivation to try harder next time.

Now was that glib, or gloomy?

 

[nosehair]

Hey, how 'bout telling him that this "firhose training" will be his "lifestyle" for a while. Up at 3 AM, home by midnight, instant data, instant decisions, rata-rata-rata, let's go, boy, whatcha waitin for?
Are you sure he wants to do this? It takes a few hard years in the trench before he can pick and choose and live the "Movie Life" of an Airline Pilot.

 

[rltoma]

As a low time pilot myself, what do you guys think of the ATOP program out in Texas? Would this be a good way to judge ones ability to take this type of training? I would like to know if I can handle it before spending thousands of hours and dollors only to be washed out

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Nose,

I have been doing this for 17 years, still haven't seen that "movie life" I must be doing something wrong!!!!!!!!! I knew I should have taken drama instead of aerodynamics 101.

Afar,

Its not that we are all out to give you a gloomy response, it is simply the facts of the matter. If your nephew washed out it was of his own doing. Either he is not cut out to be a pilot (Unlikely) or he did not apply himself when he had the chance. As Avbug said, use it as a learning experience and make sure it does not happen again.

Some things that I use that help during the training.

Flashcards- if you need to know it, put it on a flash card for study, Don't buy a set from that guy in class that is selling them for extra bucks......make them yourself, half the learning comes from handwriting the info yourself. Go over said flashcards at least 10 times a day until you know the info cold.......If you are short of time, take them to the crapper with you in the morning. There is no excuse for not knowing the memory items and limitations.

Do not be the odd man out, when your class mates get together and study, make darn sure you are there too. If you don't understand something, someone else does. Nobody ever made it through training on their own.

Never whine about it being too much work, nobody cares, the airline least of all.

Try to break the info down to smaller chunks, start with one system in 20 min spurts, take a 5 min break and then 20 more. Studies show that the human brain remembers the first 10 minutes and last 10 minutes of information best.

Don't worry about looking stupid by hauling your flash cards to the resturant with you, take them everywhere you may have a chance to review them. 121 training has a way of weeding out the posers, we all look stupid when our future is on the line.

Explain to your family and friends that you will be unavailible for the next month or so. Let them get mad if you have to but going to grannys birthday party or bowling with the guys is not going to get that airline job for you. DO NOT come home on the weekends during training, especially if you are having trouble with the info. Stay at the hotel and study.

And last but not least, always remember that there are 10,000 other pilots just waiting for you to screw up so they can take your place. Anytime you start feeling overwhelmed or feeling sorry for yourself that one fact will normally get your butt away from the T.V. and back to the books.

Good Luck.

 

[avbug]

Rltoma,

Of course you can do it. You'll need to remember that you do the work yourself, and that the firm cannot instill the information in you by osmosis, and you'll be fine.

Programs such as which you refer will give you a taste but not a realistic dose of the type or pace of training.

Buy a 727 or 737 manual off ebay. They're available. Make a flashcard of every memory proceedure, every limitation, every fact that you can glean out of that manual, and learn every one. That will give you an idea of the basic information you'll need to learn, to start. It takes off from there.

How willing one is to undertake the level of study required often determines one's success. It's not difficult, but does require commitment. It can be done.

Most training facilities use a cockpit proceedures mockup, which is a fullsized cockpit mockup that usually has pictures of each panel, each instrument, all in the appropriate places. One can sit in the cockpit and run through checklists and proceedures over and over until one understands them. This device is sometimes called the "paper tiger."

You should be blind-fold familiar with your cockpit. Blindfolded, you should be able to reach out and touch every switch, every knob, every control, every circuit breaker, on command, and do the same with each memory proceedure.

A tool I found useful was to obtain a cockpit wall poster, showing all instruments and controls, electrical, etc. Around it on the wall I would place 4X6 cards each with the memory items for a particular proceedure. Over and over I would drill myself on the proceedures, reaching out to the picture and touching each item, until each act became second nature.

Preparation is the key. It's very much a matter of self-discipline, as nobody will come hold your hand. It's sink or swim, but it's up to each individual...thousands of others have done it, and there's no reason why you can't, either.

 

[rltoma]

Avbug, Thanks for the reply. From what you have posted, I feel I have what it takes. I will do anything that I need to do to get the job done. Hard work and determination are no stranger to me. Again, thanks for telling it like it is. Robert

 

[Gulfstream 200]

what do you want to hear??

that it was the big evil airlines fault your nephew washed out?

Didn't he know he was going to his first airline school? did he not get the info ahead of time? (Oh, its out there). I always did.

I dont buy that "firehose" bull$hit. Everyone I know (including myself - I have been through a 121 school too) did fine in training. You dont have to lock yourself in a room and die studying. I always found time to exercise, socialize, drink a bit...etc...the WORST thing you can do is lock down and read all night, every night.

Really, the ATR Pt121 school I went through and the 5 type ratings I have gotten really were NOT that hard!! some work? sure....but I just never experienced that "firehose" thing some speak of. But admittingly, I always went in fairly prepared.

Sounds like your nephew just choked. Tell him to grow up, shake it off, and move on. There is a LONG career ahead of him.

Oh.....and.....

Nobody likes a whinin' pu$$y.

 

[350DRIVER]

afar1,

This is exactly why the washout rate is the highest among the low timers, they just do not have the background/real world experience to succeed. There is only so much that you can "learn" while in a 121 ground school if you have not been preparing for this. Eagle is one of the more difficult regionals out there when it comes to ground school, training, sim, oral, ride.. There is not too much he can do to make himself "more comfortable", at this point in the ball game they are not going to walk him through it hand in hand to make sure he passes (too many other guys waiting in line). Is it unfortunate? YES but sometimes so is life so accept it and move on. If he so desires to be an airline pilot then he will make it one day but no "advice" is going to better prepare him to succeed during initial 121 ground school, it is surely not a walk in the park and it should not be. Remember this is a game and the best prepared party usually comes out ahead in the end and "wins". I would highly suggest that at 1000 hours that he gets some real world experience possibly doing some 135 stuff, etc. Did I like doing single pilot work in sh!tty maintained aircraft and lousy wx?, no but that experience I gained is part of the reason I am where I am at present day. I have seen a lot and from that I think it is safe to say that the lower time, less experienced guys will have a much harder/difficult time adapting to what is "expected" of you in the 121 environment. You get one chance so you must make it worst, failure cannot be considered an option.

I do not think you are going to find too much compassion from this board, you either got your stuff together at this stage or you don't simple as that. You cannot sugar coat this and put lipstick on a pig and call it "purdy". He needs to sit down and get to speed before he "attempts" this again since if no improvement has been made then the outcome will likely be the same as the first. I know quite a few instructors and as they say "perform or move out".


Training is not easy at the regional level and it only gets harder the higher up one moves. I wish him luck but not much I or St. Joseph could say that would/could make a difference.


hard work pays off, I would tell him to follow his heart and go the extra mile to ensure that try II is not a repeat of try I.


good luck

3 5 0

 

[afar1]

Thanks,
I am actually considering having him attend an a&p class or two
to help him with systems but is there anyway he can get tutoring on the told cards?--He had a hard time with them.

 

[PC12Cowboy]

TOLD????

As a low timer with some turbine time, I am not familiar with TOLD...so do tell an explanation
I always count on you guys&gals for great responses!!

Afar
I have been thru one type school(the PC12..DUH )And if your nephew is really commited to the task at hand basic systems can always be learned by hanging at the airport..and bothering the A&P's while they are working...most will tell you what and why they are working on the plane...and they will gain respect for the pilot who is concerned enough to ask questions!

For some this is a JOB..that is the only goal...For those with Passion for flying this IS a way of life!!
He should immerse in everything flying..all the time..until he bleeds 100LL and pisses JET A then it might come a lil easier..
Just remember this fact as quote by MR Bob Hoover!!

"The day I stop learning about flying, is the day the close the casket lid"

ChinChin
PC12Cowboy


p.s. I know the PC12 isnt a type rating ..just type specific

 

[Checks]

He is a 1000 hour pilot

Pretty much sums it up, doesnt it?

 

[Snakum]

As an aging, cynical wannabe ... aspiring only to fly rubber dog $hit around the mid-atlantic in old, clapped-out Senecas in the ice ... so far aviation is, indeed, a very "glib and gloomy" profession.

However ... if I started getting my full salary again ... and thus could finally afford to get my CFI, teach for a few hundred hours, and have my aging, cynical @ss hired into the right-hand seat of an MAC ATR42 ... I might change my tune.

And I assure you ... if ever given the opportunity to 'suck the firehose' ... I would forgo sleep, food, and sex and ensure I did WHATEVER IT TAKES for the honor of yanking the gear in an old ATR. OK ... I'd forgo the food and the sleep, anyway.

Minh
"Glib and Gloomy"

 

[avbug]

Forgo sex?

Afar, Takeoff and Landing Data cards are simply calculations of aircraft performance, based on actual conditions at the time of arrival and departure. These cards are filled out using aircraft performance charts.

Any pilot flying transport category aircraft should be able to help him out with this; it's very straight-forward. It's the same information he should be filling out when he flies his Cessna 172 with a student...just for bigger airplanes, with a little more information. No different, otherwise.

See if he can get performance data for a particular large airplane, one he may be flying, and begin calculating performance under varying conditions. Fill in the boxes on the form; that's all there is to it. With the assistance of anybody flying any transport category airplane, he should have no difficulty.