Can a CFII give inst. training in a multi?

[pilotsh]

OK folks, this question has been eating me up for the last 2 months. Can a CFII (NOT an MEI though) with CSEL, CMEL and instrumment rating (obviously) give instrument training to a student with a PMEL or CMEL? The student already has their instrument rating and is current in regards to the FARs, but isn't the sharpest on instruments and wants to fly a twin with a CFII to become very proficient. So this is NOT for a rating, and there will be NO single engine approaches done.

So can a CFII log the flight training as dual given and as PIC?

I'm referencing this to the fact that one may get their CFII as their initial CFI ticket, so you don't have your CFIA to log dual given and PIC while training someone for their instrument rating.

I've spoken with a highly knowledgeable FAA DPE (he gives a lot of seminars on behalf of the FAA here) and he said that as long as the "student" has PMEL or CMEL, the flight instructor is a CFII with a CMEL, and there are no single engine approaches done, the CFII can log that as dual given and PIC.

I've taken a look at the FARs, and the one thing that makes it very grey is the wording in 61.195c :"...for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR..."

Anyone agree or disagree and have the supporting facts?

 

[JediNein]

From John Lynch (FAA big cheese) per an email to me dated 10/5/2004:
"A person holds a Flight Instructor Certificate-Instrument Airplane only and wants to conduct an Instrument Proficiency Check in a multiengine land airplane (for example in a Cessna 310). The Instrument Proficiency Check will require the flight instructor to test the pilot on Emergency Operations - Loss of Communications, One engine inoperative during straight and level flight and turns (Multiengine), One engine inoperative-instrument approach (Multiengine), and Loss of Gyro Attitude and/or Heading Indicators.

What are flight instructor certificate and ratings, pilot certificate and ratings, and qualifications the person must have to be in compliance with § 61.195(b) and (c)? Does the flight instructor have to have logged 5 hours of PIC flight experience in the Cessna 310?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(b)(1) and (c) and (f); The person must hold at least the following:

1. Flight Instructor Certificate Instrument-Airplane

AND

2. Commercial Pilot Certificate
Airplane Multiengine Land
Instrument-Airplane

or

2. ATP Certificate
Airplane Multiengine Land

3. The person must have logged at least 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 310."


Your FAA experience may vary.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Smoothstu]

Yes

You can actually get you CFII first! Meaning you will hold ONLY a CFI - Instrument Airplane (NO SE-I or ME-I). Now what can you teach? The answer is intrument flight ONLY, in anything you hold on your Commercial certificate.

Be Carefull with how/who you fly with. The pilot recieving the instruction must be ME current and qualified and recieve instruction for ONLY on intrument rating PTS items (yes this includes single-engine approaches). BUT this does not include normal/short/soft landings or takeoffs in VMC.

 

[pilotsh]

Jedi Nein, thanks for the response! What's really interesting is that the response they gave you allows a CFII with a CMEL/Inst rating to teach single engine approaches without being an MEI? That's strange. If you could do me a favor and fwd that email to me, I'd really appreciate it.

 

[pilotsh]

BUT this does not include normal/short/soft landings or takeoffs in VMC.

Thanks Stu. So as the CFII, how would you log the flight in your logbook? Say the flight was 3 hours, and your student logs 2.6 under the hood? Can you as the CFI log all 3 hours of the flight (since the whole flight was intended as an instrument training flight) or can you only log the time the student was under the hood?

 

[JediNein]

You are PIC the whole time you are giving instrument instruction with a CFII.

Email sent.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[svcta]

Save yourself all the interpretation unless you're burning for more dual given. As far as I remember the regs clearly state that 2 people can log PIC when one is acting as a safety pilot and the other is under the hood. I may go look it up, but I'm sure that someone else will post it here any second........probably to prove me wrong.

 

[minitour]

There's also a section in FAA Order 8700 that talks about a CFII giving instruction in twins.

-mini

 

[pilotsh]

There's also a section in FAA Order 8700 that talks about a CFII giving instruction in twins.

-mini

Thanks mini, after some time searching Order 8700, I found it. It's in Chapter 11, Section 8 if anyone needs it as a reference. It pretty much resolves my issues.

SVCTA- yeah, you could just do safety pilot, but safety pilots don't get paid. Even though its crap pay, when you're flight instructing, you earn something

 

[bobs98tlr]

Pilotsh....sounds like a question ive herd before that was brought up to a DPE....you in the Chicago area? Just currious i might know you.