Can A CFI do an....

[Magic1872]

Can A CFI do an IPC?

Here is how I read the regs on this:

61.195 Flight Instructor Limitation and Qualifications.

(d) Limitations on endorsements. A flight instructor may not endorse a:

(6) Logbook of a pilot for an instrument proficiency check, unless that instructor has tested that pilot in accordance with the requirements of §61.57(d) of this part

What does everyone think?

 

[JediNein]

CFI without instrument can not carry out the items in the instrument practical test standards. The IFR PTS requires use of the PTS.

It's been tried and doesn't work.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Magic1872]

The way i read the FARs is as long as the flight instructor tests the student per 61.57D you can accoplish an IPC

 

[Downwind]

Then show me in the "FAR's" where is says FAR's. It's 14 CFR part XX. FAR is the Federal Acquisition Regulations which is 48 CFR.

http://www.acqnet.gov/far/

 

[VNugget]

Then show me in the "FAR's" where is says FAR's.

All over the place.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Can A CFI do an IPC?

Only if the CFI is a CFII.

After looking at a whole bunch of rules and official opinions, I came up with this (maybe incorrect) paradigm of instrument work and the need for an instrument rating on the CFI certificate:

If an instructor =is= required by an FAR that talks about instrument training or instrument instruction or instrument currency, a CFII is required.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Then show me in the "FAR's" where is says FAR's.

You can start with 14 CFR 21.27 where it appears about a half dozen times, then go look for the other hundred or so. Then you can search for the other (I'd bet thousand or so) times the term is used in other FAA publications.

"The FAR is not the FAR. It's really 14 CFR...." Oooooooh! I think someone realized that the regs are codified in the Code of Federal Regulations about the time of the 1997 Part 61 revisions and it's been a big deal ever since. The most ridiculous version being something I came across that said that the Federal Aviation Regulations were "no longer the "FAR; they are now 14 CFR".

 

[Amish RakeFight]

You need to be a CFII to do an IPC.

 

[Magic1872]

then how can a CFI do instrument training with a private pilot student.

Then can someone explain this to me, and how i'm interperting it wrong

61.195 Flight Instructor Limitation and Qualifications.

(d) Limitations on endorsements. A flight instructor may not endorse a:

(6) Logbook of a pilot for an instrument proficiency check, unless that instructor has tested that pilot in accordance with the requirements of §61.57(d) of this part

It says nothing about instrument flight instructor.

 

[minitour]

14 CFR 61.57 (D) (2) (iv)

"An authorized instructor; or" (emphasis added)

You've got to be an "authorized" instructor...it's written everywhere in Part 61...

It's there to prevent me from giving someone Helo training with my CFI - IA or CE525 Training with my CFI-A...

I'm just not authorized for those types of training...neither is a CFI-A authorized to conduct an IPC.

-mini

PS
As a CFI-A you are not giving a student pilot "instrument training". You're giving him training outlined in 14 CFR 61.109 for a private pilot certificate, not for an instrument rating.

That's how you can get away with that.

 

[nosehair]

As a CFI-A you are not giving a student pilot "instrument training". You're giving him training outlined in 14 CFR 61.109 for a private pilot certificate, not for an instrument rating.

That's how you can get away with that.

It's actually worded differently, it's not called instrument training.

61.109(a)(3) "3 hours of flight training in a single engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an aircraft solely by reference to instruments."

 

[minitour]

It's actually worded differently, it's not called instrument training.

61.109(a)(3) "3 hours of flight training in a single engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an aircraft solely by reference to instruments."

Well then perfect...it's definitely not "instrument training".

-mini

 

[gsrcrsx68]

You need your II...

Found on the internet from an FAA part 61 FAQ:

. The flight instructor who administers the Instrument Proficiency Check of § 61.57(d) must hold a CFII-Airplane rating and as per § 61.195(c), the flight instructor must “. . . hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.”

 

[midlifeflyer]

then how can a CFI do instrument training with a private pilot student.

Let's start with 61.195(c)
==============================
Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.
==============================

A CFI does not do "instrument training" with a private pilot student. Go look at the tasks, you won't see the words "instrument training" used anywhere. The FAA has long taken the position (at least since 1979 - I guess that's long enough) that the "training in flight solely by reference to the instruments" that appears in the student and private pilot requirements is not "instrument training."

Take a step back and think about what you are arguing. In order to do any of the required training and endorse a pilot to take an instrument checkride, a CFI needs a CFI instrument rating. But to take a pilot who hasn't flown instruments for 20 years and test his level of proficiency in meeting a set of required PTS instrument tasks and re-certify him as a competent instrument pilot, he doesn't even need an instrument rating at all.

C'mon. The FAR seems a bit illogical at times, but really.

 

[MauleSkinner]

then how can a CFI do instrument training with a private pilot student.

Then can someone explain this to me, and how i'm interperting it wrong

61.195 Flight Instructor Limitation and Qualifications.

(d) Limitations on endorsements. A flight instructor may not endorse a:

(6) Logbook of a pilot for an instrument proficiency check, unless that instructor has tested that pilot in accordance with the requirements of §61.57(d) of this part

It says nothing about instrument flight instructor.

It appears to me that you're making a fairly common error here...you're taking a single regulation that applies only to ENDORSEMENTS, and applying it to FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR PRIVILEGES.

In this case, just backing up one paragraph might help.

Sec. 61.193 - Flight instructor privileges.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings to give training and endorsements that are required for, and relate to:
(a) ...
(g) A flight review, operating privilege, or recency of experience requirement of this part;
(h) ...

Note also, if you read a little farther into 61.195(f), it says

(f) Training received in a multiengine airplane, a helicopter, or a powered-lift. A flight instructor may not give training required for the issuance of a certificate or rating in a multiengine airplane, a helicopter, or a powered-lift unless that flight instructor has at least 5 flight hours of pilot-in-command time in the specific make and model of multiengine airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift, as appropriate.

This specific regulation doesn't require a mutli-engine instructor rating to give training required for a multi-engine rating. It only requires 5 PIC in make and model. Would you say that a CFI-A without the multi-instructor rating could give instruction for a multiengine rating?

I have actually seen this taken so far as to say that a Light Sport Pilot doesn't need a flight review, because a flight review is not specified under Subpart J.

Fly safe!

David