Bush vs.Kerry - the aviation perspective

[Partridge]

Who would be the better president for aviation:
- the airlines (ie jobs)?
- general aviation?
- the military?

Any thoughts?

 

[FL000]

Who would be the better president for aviation:
- the airlines (ie jobs)?
- general aviation?
- the military?

Any thoughts?

- Airlines: Bush, because the President doesn't make jobs appear out of nowhere as Kerry would have you believe. The President creates a prosperous atmosphere for business, who in a desire to grow and maximize profit, begin to hire. President Bush is an established leader in the effort to ease the tax burden on the percentage of people who create jobs and are most productive, rather than the leeches who don't pay as much tax in the first place.

- GA: Bush, for the same reason, plus the fact that the main cost to GA is liability defense. Ask Sen. Edwards how he feels about tort reform.

- Military: Bush, because he has proven that he will support the most advanced weapons and training programs so we can continue to hold the title of most lethal military in human history. Kerry has proven time and again that he is an enemy of advanced weapons, as well as an enemy of funding for troop support.

 

[Lead Sled]

My brother found this float around cyberspace and sent it to me. For those of you who want to know the difference between a Republican and a Democraft - this explains it as well as anything I've ever heard...

A woman in a hot air balloon realized she was lost. She descended to a lower altitude and spotted a fisherman in a boat out on a small lake below her. She shouted to him, "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."

The man consulted his portable GPS and replied, "You're in a hot air balloon approximately 30 feet above a ground elevation of 2346 feet above sea level. You are 31 degrees, 14.97 minutes north latitude and 100 degrees, 49.09 minutes west longitude.

She rolled her eyes and said, "You must be a Republican."

"I am," replied the man. "How did you know?"

"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help to me."

The man smiled and responded, "You must be a Democrat."

"I am," replied the balloonist. "How did you know?"

"Well," said the man, "you don't know where you are or where you're going. You've risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise that you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. You're in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but somehow now, it's my fault."

FOUR MORE YEARS!!!

'Sled

 

[AeroBoy]

- Airlines: Bush, because the President doesn't make jobs appear out of nowhere as Kerry would have you believe. The President creates a prosperous atmosphere for business, who in a desire to grow and maximize profit, begin to hire. President Bush is an established leader in the effort to ease the tax burden on the percentage of people who create jobs and are most productive, rather than the leeches who don't pay as much tax in the first place.

Is a "prosperous atmosphere" one where fuel prices skyrocket in part because of our country's energy policy, which happened to be largely written by the energy industry itself? Fuel, not labor, costs are the biggest threat to the airlines, both LCCs and legacy carriers. More tax breaks won't help the situation; instead they will only bankrupt our country. And are you saying that someone who works two or three minimum-wage jobs and can barely feed his family is a leech because he pays little or no taxes? I knew "compassionate conservative" was, and continues to be, an oxymoron.

- GA: Bush, for the same reason, plus the fact that the main cost to GA is liability defense. Ask Sen. Edwards how he feels about tort reform.

Ask Bush what he thinks about opening DCA to general aviation. For GA, it's access to airports that's the real issue. Tort reform for GA was accomplished in 1994 under GARA, which Kerry supported. Also, Kerry has been courteous enough to GA by electing to eschew TFRs wherever he travels and he said he'd open DCA to vetted GA operators as soon as he takes office.

- Military: Bush, because he has proven that he will support the most advanced weapons and training programs so we can continue to hold the title of most lethal military in human history. Kerry has proven time and again that he is an enemy of advanced weapons, as well as an enemy of funding for troop support.

I must admit I'm not that knowledgeable in this area, but I've read in several magazines and newspapers that Kerry's record in this area pretty much mirrors Cheney's when he was secretary of defense. I'll call this one a draw between Bush and Kerry.

 

[FL000]

And are you saying that someone who works two or three minimum-wage jobs and can barely feed his family is a leech because he pays little or no taxes?

Yes, I am. He gets the benefits that Uncle Sam offers without any of the cost. I, on the other hand, pay 25% or more to cover that guy's a$$, all because I'm more educated, more productive, and earn more money. Great incentives your Democratic representatives have established.

(And we all know it's the President's fault that the person you mention is where he is, right? Wink, wink)

 

[mmmdonut]

BUSH ALL AROUND! WE LOVE BUSH!!!

LOL...

An airline pilot voting for Bush is like a chicken voting for Col. Sanders

 

[AeroBoy]

FL000,

If everyone were like you--more educated, more productive and earn more money--then whom would you get to clean your mansion for peanuts? It's not like you can outsource your housework to another country.

The point is that it's naive to think that everyone is equal when it comes to intelligence, business acumen and work skills. Some just have more than others in this area. And those that have should help those that don't have. This is why the wealthy should pay more taxes as a percent of income, and those barely eeking by should pass less tax as a percent of income. This is called a progressive tax (go look this up in your dictionary).

If we had a regressive tax, such as a national sales tax, the lower-income folks would probably have to live on the streets and/or resort to a life of stealing to get by, all while the rich continue to get richer. That's not the America I know, nor a country that I'd be proud to live in.

One more thing: I never said it's the president's fault that there are, and will continue to be, people that earn a low wage. But the president should be the first one to extend a figurative hand to help them up, not knock them back down.

 

[Lead Sled]

But the president should be the first one to extend a figurative hand to help them up, not knock them back down.

No one's arguing that point. The question is do we put a safety net or a hammock in place.

The typical liberal Democratic positions on just about every social/economic issue are dismal failures, they haven't worked in 70 years and no amount of rhetoric or money will ever make them work.

'Sled

 

[FL000]

Some just have more than others in this area. And those that have should help those that don't have.

No, we shouldn't. That is Socialism, Communism, whatever-ism...redistribution of wealth. I am responsible for myself and my family...that's it. Now if you're talking PHILANTHROPY, that's a whole different deal altogether. You will be surprised to know that I give about 2% of my salary to various non-profits each year (no, not ALPA). So a conservative can be compassionate. We just don't like for the gub'ment to steal from us and distribute our wealth as they see fit. That is MY money. I will do with it as I please. If that means philanthropy, Great! If not, that's my freakin' business.

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

(might I suggest a move to the Non-Aviation forum, I sense a thread-jack coming up...)

One of the creepiest things about Bush for me (as a pilot) is that he had a truly sweet gig. Weekend flying in an F-106 with very little other duty. And when it comes down to it, he turned away from it all and never looked back. The touchy feely, sentimental part of me has some deep-seated problem with that.

As to your three questions,

-airlines (jobs).

I sure don't think Bush has done a good job here. I do not beleive that giving the tax cuts he did helps the economy near as much as giving it to lower income people would have. When it comes down to it, someone who is making a comfy living making over 200K a year will sit on, say, a $2,000 tax break. I, on the other hand, will spend every cent of that tax break, soon. And that is money that would provide a faster, more efficient use of the money in our economy. I can't subscribe to the beleif that a tax cut for a business owner means that they will hire a new worker. My personal history has shown that in the midst of Bush's tax cuts, I have simply been asked to work harder (how about five months without a day off--even Mesa pilots get more than that). Not that I necessarily think that Kerry would be or have been better, but I think that Bush failed miserably here.

Bush's family history on airline labor is also a pretty big black flag. I mean, his Dad is the one who thought that Borman and Bryant should have a "man on man talk," or something like that. I'm not sure Eastern should have survived, but I don't think that Old Bush helped the situation.

Unfortunately, I don't know what Kerry's record on labor relations is, but I would wager a guess that he is in pretty tight with the AFL-CIO and stuff...

-GA

I'd say that this one is a toss up. Bush has certaintly made it clear that he's opposed to user fees, and under Democrats this issue keeps coming up (despite what Kerry says, I think that he'd eventually try to implement them).

But Kerry did support the GA revitilization act of '94 (?), and that speaks volumes to me. Much more than claims that we need tort reform to help GA out even more.

Legal reform is, I think necessary, but I don't like the way either side is approaching the issue.

-Military

I'd say this one is also a toss up. Bush certaintly cultivates the image of supporting the military and all that, but I just don't beleive it. Of my personal friends currently serving, half like him, half don't. Plusses are that he is perceived as being "pro-military" Minuses are that the military is so overworked that it may be very harmful in the long run. Repeated deployments and constant attack cannot be helpful retaining members of the military (notice how hard it is for military pilots to get out right now...)

But Kerry has repeatedly cut military funding. However, he "might" be able to help the overworking problem. And despite the rhetoric, I DO NOT think that we are safer now than when Bush took charge. Quite frankly, I think he screwed up so badly with the radical muslim world that we are all in a much, much more dangerous position than we were five years ago.

I'm not sure that Kerry would have been any better (he did authorize the whole Iraq thing, and to me that is just about as bad as being the one who wants authorization), but I think that Bush has watched a few too many "Walker: Texas Ranger" episodes to be able to objectively work on the problem.

Simply, this election isn't about aviation. Life is not about aviation.

<SNIP, you guys already got into it...>

Dan

(Again, I'll suggest a thread move--although good intentioned to stay on aviation--the one will soon turn into all the other threads...) Ha, I even got a quick Mesa Bash in there, if only I can bring up the RJDC, and a few bankrupcies then we'll have a near complete thread. BUt I wouldn't touch PFT witha ten foot pole.

 

[pilotman2105]

That is MY money. I will do with it as I please.

Amen.

 

[Vector4fun]

I personally try never to debate Politics with faceless, (and clueless) BBS entities. I rarely find anything more intellectualy interesting than a bumper sticker here.

However, one bit that has always bugged me is this. People throw the word "Taxes" around all the time as if Personal Income Taxes are THE only taxes that count. Every working person pays taxes. They pay payroll taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, etc. etc. etc. Debate the relative merits of a Progressive Income Tax all you want, but that is just one tax among many. I've paid taxes every year since I was 16 years old, and had a paying job and a car. There may have been years long ago when I didn't pay any Federal Income Tax, but I paid taxes just the same.

Vote for who you want. I won't try to convince a soul on this BBS to change their vote. I personally feel that if Bush and Kerry are the two "Best" candidates for President the Greatest Nation on Earth can field, then I want to go puke.



And, btw, I paid over $1600 in Personal Income Taxes this month.....

 

[bigD]

I personally try never to debate Politics with faceless, (and clueless) BBS entities. I rarely find anything more intellectualy interesting than a bumper sticker here.

What's funny to me about your comment is that I'd bet the majority of people here have never actually used a BBS. I remember those days - I used to run a two line BBS off a 12MHz 286. My friends and I used to exchange text-based games that way. Good times.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

"I sure don't think Bush has done a good job here. I do not beleive that giving the tax cuts he did helps the economy near as much as giving it to lower income people would have. When it comes down to it, someone who is making a comfy living making over 200K a year will sit on, say, a $2,000 tax break. I, on the other hand, will spend every cent of that tax break, soon. "

Well his tax break helped me get a job because my employer had extra money to hire me. My ballot has been cast for the far lesser of two evils.

 

[Vector4fun]

What's funny to me about your comment is that I'd bet the majority of people here have never actually used a BBS. I remember those days - I used to run a two line BBS off a 12MHz 286. My friends and I used to exchange text-based games that way. Good times.

Yeah, you're right, I sould have said Web board or something similar. I've just always used that abbr. I guess. And I remember being on line on GEnie with a 286 I build from parts, with an RLL hard drive of around 10 mb, and a 2400 baud Hayes modem...

We used to laugh about what we'd do with a 1gb hard drive....

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

"Well his tax break helped me get a job because my employer had extra money to hire me. My ballot has been cast for the far lesser of two evils."

I'm honestly glad to hear it. That is very good for you. But do you know for a fact that the job was predicated on the tax cut? Would there have been more than one hires if the whole economy had picked up on the consumer end?

My personal story has still shown that instead of hiring another pilot, I have simply been expected to work harder. (that includes three jobs, so I don't think that it's an isolated thing). Perhaps I'm just a pushover, but I kind of doubt that--I am really, really averse to work

My vote has yet to be cast. Some of us are still in that undecided column.

---------

a 2400 baud Hayes? Wow, I my first was a 600 baud. I STILL think that the original Zork games were much better. Return to Zork was awesome in it's own way "Want some Rye--'course ya do!" But some of us remember when computer's were the domain of the TRULY nerdy, and that's when the best games were geing made. We would never have allowed "Deer Hunter" to make it to market

Let the Geekfest rage on!

Dan

 

[SCT]

Kerry would probably make the airlines put solar panels on their aircraft as an alternative fuel source........


......but that might be a good idea for us pilots: No more early morning departures, no night flying or IFR days!!

 

[AeroBoy]

I personally feel that if Bush and Kerry are the two "Best" candidates for President the Greatest Nation on Earth can field, then I want to go puke.

I agree. The same can be said for the 2000 election.


BigD:

I too ran a BBS a LONG time ago using a Commodore 64 and 300 baud modem (later upgraded to 1200 and then 2400 bps). The Internet has made dinosaurs out of the BBSs. Too bad because the users were mostly locals, several of whom I actually met and remain friends with to this day. I've yet to meet up with someone from the Internet. Those were defibitely good times...

 

[JohnDoe]

Concerning the airlines, to me it boils down to one word: cabotage

With a Bush administration in place 4 more years, I would bet money we end up with it. They have come right out and said it wouldn't be changed this round of EU talks because it was an election year.

 

[mattpilot]

Concerning the airlines, to me it boils down to one word: cabotage

With a Bush administration in place 4 more years, I would bet money we end up with it. They have come right out and said it wouldn't be changed this round of EU talks because it was an election year.

I doubt it!

 

[nimtz]

I doubt it!

And what evidence to you have to back that claim up. Bush has never gone on record saying he would stop cabotage and unlike the Steel Workers who live in key election states, airline pilots are spread out across the nation. Bush already signed the bill that allowed cargo cabotage out of Anchorage and strong indications are that the US wants to wrap up full Open Sky with the EU. The sticking point is the EU wants full access to the US domestic market.

Four years is alot of time for that sticking point to be smoothed over and BOOM the flood gates open to cabotage. If you have evidence to the countary please enlighten us cause I haven't found it yet from the Republican Party. Maybe the EU dislikes Bush so much that maybe they'll be too annoyed to see his representatives despite the potential windfall gain for EU business. That's my only hope for the next four years under W.

 

[mattpilot]

i expressed an opinion - not a fact.


But to expand on my opinion - I think Kerry is more likely to authorize cabotage because it would be a good way to better the relationships between the EU and the US.

But I don't think its going to happen any time soon, because not even in the EU itself has full cabotage taken place. Only a few authorizations have been issued. In my own country of austria, only austrian based airlines can transport cargo/people within the country. And i believe germany is the same way.

In fact, to be completely honest, and maybe you can enlighten me (which would be nice), i can't think of a country in europe that currently allows free and unrestricted cabotage ( I think the UK & ireland have such a deal maybe (ryanair) ).

 

[FearlessFreep]

I usually don't like to get involved in political discussions in this kind of forum, but I feel compelled to drop my two cents, and that's probably more than it's worth.

Tax cuts. Lesse, the country suffers through a emotionally, economically, sociologically devastating attack - in addition to the tremendous loss of life. So in the light of that, we increase spending IMMEDIATELY on security programs, going to war in Afganistan, then later Iraq. The economy stinks, so lets have a tax cut! What? Are you out of your mind? Pundits will try to tell you that the tax cut will stimulate the economy. Well if that's the case why do we still have a record deficit? Why is the economy still in the dumps? Boy I can't tell you all the things I did with my $300.00 tax cut refund! Well actually I can tell you, I paid my utilities for ONE MONTH! You know those expensive ones in California that have been jacked up by the likes of Enron, Halliburton and other Texas energy companies that had to punish California for not supporting your Bush! Well OK, maybe I am taking it to extremes with the utility thing.

Bush support aviation. Nope, no way no how. He's doesn't support labor either - and a little bulletin, unless you are the MAJOR owners of the company you work for, your LABOR! In the eyes of the Bush administration an expendable resource. Just give hime some time and he will figure out how to outsource EVERYTHING! He has already gotten involved in invoking some measure of cabotage. This path is just absurd, I mean after all he is suggesting that WE buy Canadian drugs because they are cheaper! I thought we were supposed to be the mightiest and richest country in the world? Now we have to go begging to our neighbors for help? What about some pride and bringing industry BACK into this (in a sensible and ecologically feasible manner) country?

Let us not forget all the unspent money on loan guarantees that were NOT paid to the airlines after 911. Where did all that money go? Why has it NEVER been released to the carriers that need it most?

Bush is set on selling this country off, outsourcing everything. The only winners will be the executives of the major corporations. He will keep popping off his ill formed rhetoric that HE is the only person who can "protect" America. If this is the case, why did 911 happen. Have things been dramatically improved since that point in time? Why is it that at one point in time this rhetoric included statements that implied if you voted Democratic you stood against the country? What? That's pretty scary in a totalitarian sense.

Now Kerry, I quite frankly don't know too much about where he stands. Both of these candidates leave me flat. I know who I will vote for only because they represent the lesser of two evils. I want our personal rights protected, and not stripped from us by someone who thinks that the Pope should have a say as to the happenings of this country.

The most surprising thing to me about these two candidates is that they are both pilots. You would think that they both would be more pragmatic about things and work on getting things fixed and not slinging mud.

One other dichotomy that I don't quite understand, To most people the Vietnam War was a bad thing, it was good that we got out of it. We castigate someone who actually fought in the war - spilling his own blood who then later campaigns against it and had at least a small effect of bringing the war to an end. This meant that he was involved in a controversial hearing in front of Congress when he was the tender age of about 26. We do not forgive this individual, only berate him for his "mistakes". On the other hand we have someone who skated in his national duties, was a lazy, drunk, coke fiend, that until now has never held a fulltime job. This individual is given more creedence and credit than the other, who quite frankly has had to face adversity that is much greater than that of the drunk. Go figure.

I think it all comes down to integrity, which one has more?

Remember that Bush never won the popular vote.

The most important thing is not who you vote for but that you do VOTE!

Take Care & Good Luck To Us All!

 

[atrdriver]

And those that have should help those that don't have. This is why the wealthy should pay more taxes as a percent of income, and those barely eeking by should pass less tax as a percent of income. This is called a progressive tax (go look this up in your dictionary).

I have no problem with those who make more paying more tax. I do have a problem with the "earned Income Tax Credit", where people can get a refund of MORE than they had withheld. I do have a problem with the top 5% of wage earners paying 70% of the total tax bill. By the way, how is it that Kerry made 3 times as much as Bush did last tax year and paid 1/3 of the income taxes? If you want to argue for a reformed income tax system, we're all ears. If you want to bash people who make more money because they busted their a$$es to get where they are, go talk to a democrat.

atrdriver

 

[atrdriver]

Remember that Bush never won the popular vote.

Neither did Clinton, in either election. But I remember him saying that he had a "mandate" with his 47%.

atrdriver

 

[atrdriver]

And despite the rhetoric, I DO NOT think that we are safer now than when Bush took charge. Quite frankly, I think he screwed up so badly with the radical muslim world that we are all in a much, much more dangerous position than we were five years ago.

And have there been any more terrorist attacks IN THIS COUNTRY since 9/11? Does Saddam still have the ability to make and use Chemical weapons, on his own people or others?

atrdriver

 

[atrdriver]

- I used to run a two line BBS off a 12MHz 286. My friends and I used to exchange text-based games that way. Good times.

I ran a 6 node BBS in Kansas City on a 8088...called FlightInfo BBS if you can believe it...from 1988 to 1991...Was a real PITA, but looking back it was kind of fun...

atrdriver

 

[atrdriver]

Boy I can't tell you all the things I did with my $300.00 tax cut refund! Well actually I can tell you, I paid my utilities for ONE MONTH! You know those expensive ones in California that have been jacked up by the likes of Enron, Halliburton and other Texas energy companies that had to punish California for not supporting your Bush! Well OK, maybe I am taking it to extremes with the utility thing.

You think those expensive electric bills out in CA might be becuase all the treehuggers not allowing new poer plants to be built, having to "ship" in electrical power from other states? No one wants a new power plant in "their" backyard, but everyone sure bit@hes when rates go up because capacity can't keep up with demand...Wait the the nuke plants start depooing off line because recertification is more expensive than the original construction was...

atrdriver

 

[RockbrigadePC1]

atrdriver....

what are you talking about?

1992

Clinton
Pop. Vote: 44,909,326 (43.0%)
Bush
Pop. Vote: 39,103,882 (37.4%

1996

Clinton
Pop. Vote: 47,401,898 (49.2%)
Dole
Pop. Vote: 39,198,482 (40.7%)

Ya, so you can sit down and shut up now...

 

[profile]

What makes you so sure Bush didn't win the popular vote? Did you personally go out and tally those several million absentee ballots that never got counted by the states that had voted for Gore in high enough numbers that the absentees would not effect the outcome?