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Brand Scope

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InclusiveScope

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Posts
385
RJ Defense Coalition
Ensuring One Level of Representation
[url]http://www.rjdefense.com[/url]

reply to: [email protected]


“BRAND SCOPE”: Truth and Consequences

Introduction

Imagine what life would be like at ASA and Comair if the Delta pilots were empowered to renegotiate your contract, cut your pay in order to subsidize their concessions, and displace you out of your aircraft in order to make room for a “preferred” class of pilots. Further, you would have little or no say in the negotiations. More importantly, your “vote” wouldn't matter because the new terms and restrictions are part of their contract—not yours. This is not fair. This is not new. This is ALPA's “Brand Scope.”

Now that ALPA has reportedly proposed “Brand Scope” at Delta, it's a good time to learn more about ALPA's latest bargaining ploy. For over two years ALPA has been arguing in court and in other forums that there is no such thing as “ASA” and “Comair” flying. As their argument goes, all “brand” flying “belongs” to the Delta pilots who may negotiate with it however they please.[1] So it shouldn't come as any surprise that the fuzzy concept of “brand scope” is little more than a desperate effort to disguise ALPA's dereliction of its duties to the ASA and Comair pilots.

“Brand Scope” Defined

ALPA has called for “brand scope,” as if it were a new union strategy intended to address changes in the industry. But examination reveals that “brand scope” is yet another ALPA euphemism for permitting Delta pilots to bargain whatever scope they desire with senior management, thus leaving the ASA and Comair pilots to vie for the leftovers. For example:


-- All flying ultimately belongs to the “mainline” pilots for scope purposes who may bargain any scope they please.
-- “Mainline” pilots allowed to unilaterally redefine “regional” or “feeder” flying.
-- Wholly-owned jobs and flying used by “mainline” pilots in their negotiations.
-- Wholly-owned bargaining subordinated to “mainline” bargaining.
-- “Mainline” pilots only required to “confer” with wholly-owned pilots.
-- ALPA national assumes no responsibility for actions of its “mainline” pilot groups.
-- Wholly-owned pilots have no standing to object.

It should be clear that ALPA's calls for “brand scope” amount to only a new marketing plan to sell an old product that doesn't work and only harms those so unfairly treated.

Actions Do Speak Louder Than Words

If you asked ALPA's leaders to define “Brand Scope,” they would probably tell you that it hasn't been defined in specific terms and that it's up to each “family” of affiliated pilot groups to work out the details. Don't be deceived. “Brand Scope” is defined, not by words, but by ALPA's actions—at the mainline bargaining table.

Delta Air Lines: Without first seeking the approval of the ASA and Comair pilots, ALPA has proposed to management that the Delta pilots be given “career” security within the Delta Brand (i.e. special employment rights as ASA and Comair.) “Brand Scope” is also reportedly part of DALPA's latest concessionary proposal.[2]

US Airways: Without first seeking the approval or input from the ALG, PDT, and PSA pilots, ALPA negotiated and implemented LOA 91 which greatly expanded the mainline pilot's control over the placement of small jets within the US Airways system. LOA 91 granted displaced mainline pilots super-seniority and special employment rights at all carriers within the US Airways “Brand” and its egregious terms were imposed upon ALPA's “regional” members on a “take it or leave it basis.”

United: Without first seeking the input or approval of its ALPA code-share affiliates, ALPA imposed Jets-for-Jobs on all 70-seat jets carrying the United code.

Northwest: Without first seeking the input or approval of the Pinnacle or Mesaba pilots, the Northwest MEC decided its negotiating committee will allocate flying within the NWA brand and has crafted bargaining proposals that would require that NWA pilots fly all 70-seat jets (i.e. new “preferred” alter-ego entity or Jets-for-Jobs.)[3]

Traps and Truths

Trap #1: “Brand Scope” takes many years to implement.
Truth: ALPA is obligated to protect the rights and interests of the ASA and Comair pilots. As such, ALPA cannot ignore duties owed today by promising to act properly tomorrow.

Trap #2: The mainline interests must negotiate on behalf of the “regional” carriers because they can't access the “real” management team.
Truth: This is a ploy to keep the “regional” pilots in the dark concerning ALPA's specific proposals and to hide the fact that ALPA's mainline interests use the small jet and its pilots as bargaining capital. Management must bargain with whomever ALPA sends to the table. ALPA, not management, determines “access” to the process and the relevant information.

Trap #3: The “Brand Scope” item listed in Delta-ALPA's recent proposal was just a “place-holder” on the agenda to be filled in later if the parties so choose.
Truth: ALPA's own definition of “Brand Scope” calls for the effected pilot groups to agree in advance before anything is negotiated with management. The fact that the ASA and Comair MEC’s did not authorize the Delta MEC to place anything on the agenda, much less agree to “Brand Scope,” suggests that “Brand Scope” is not what ALPA claims it to be. “Brand Scope” is off to a “Bad Start”.

Summary

Brand Scope is defined by ALPA's actions, not words. To-date, ALPA's actions at every other “mainline” carrier proves that Brand Scope is nothing more than a new label for old practices. In the year since “Brand Scope” was advanced by ALPA, two of the union’s largest carriers have unilaterally imposed their “brand” of Jets for Jobs and new small jet restrictions; while two more major carriers appear to be planning the same.

However, unlike less fortunate pilot groups, the ASA and Comair pilots have engaged in a vigorous defense of our rights. You can prevent the unilateral imposition of Brand Scope by supporting these efforts and staying informed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] ALPA to US District Court in Ford v. ALPA.
[2] December 2003 “Negotiator's Notepad” and published reports concerning ALPA's July 20, 2004 proposal to Delta Management.
[3] Northwest MEC Code-a-phone message dated July 16, 2004
 
Thank you for posting. I hope the ASA pilots read this and understand what it means.
 
Actually the concession proposal says we'll start having "Scope Brand" mouthwash in the crew meals as opposed to "Listerine Brand". Man, I can't believe everyone is so upset over oral hygiene.

;)
 
There are some ASA pilots on the ALPA board who scare me. They seem to be clueless about what DALPA (Delta Airline Pilots Association) wants to do to CALPA (Comair Airline Pilots Association), and AALPA, (ASA Airline Pilots Association)

It seems that they are attempting to suck up to the Delta pilots so they might one day in the distant future have a leg up on others when Delta hires pilots again.

They constantly mock the RJDC along with the Delta pilots. I hope they are in the minority over there. All we need is for ASA to drop the ball on their contract. I am sure the UAIR WO's wish they had been better prepared to fend off ALPA Nat. and MGT.

That is what the RJDC stands for to me. It has given us a voice in these matters. ALPA Nat. must change and I am thankful that we have the RJDC to fight for us . Our MEC can only do so muck Our Chairman, JC, is a Nat. VP. I feel he has been brainwashed to a certain degree and is very weak.

The latest blunder was when he told all of us that GG had "left the door open" to further discussions about merging us and ASA. Any one who read the letter GG sent back to them could plainly see it was a kiss off and lsft no doors open. It really made them look foolish, again.
 
As soon as the PID was turned down our respective MECs (ASA and CMR) were neutered. As a result they have absolutely no power to prevent J4J or any other ALPA National/DALPA scheme. We have to thank the RJDC for prevention of what is happening and has happened at USAirways and others.
 
AFELLOWAVIATOR said:
The latest blunder was when he told all of us that GG had "left the door open" to further discussions about merging us and ASA. Any one who read the letter GG sent back to them could plainly see it was a kiss off and lsft no doors open. It really made them look foolish, again.
In the second quarter earnings call GG stated, in no uncertain terms, that ASA-Comair merger was not an option.
 
InclusiveScope said:
RJ Defense Coalition
Ensuring One Level of Representation
[url]http://www.rjdefense.com[/url]

reply to: [email protected]


“BRAND SCOPE”: Truth and Consequences

Introduction

Imagine what life would be like at ASA and Comair if the Delta pilots were empowered to renegotiate your contract, cut your pay in order to subsidize their concessions, and displace you out of your aircraft in order to make room for a “preferred” class of pilots. Further, you would have little or no say in the negotiations. More importantly, your “vote” wouldn't matter because the new terms and restrictions are part of their contract—not yours. This is not fair. This is not new. This is ALPA's “Brand Scope.”

Now that ALPA has reportedly proposed “Brand Scope” at Delta, it's a good time to learn more about ALPA's latest bargaining ploy. For over two years ALPA has been arguing in court and in other forums that there is no such thing as “ASA” and “Comair” flying. As their argument goes, all “brand” flying “belongs” to the Delta pilots who may negotiate with it however they please.[1] So it shouldn't come as any surprise that the fuzzy concept of “brand scope” is little more than a desperate effort to disguise ALPA's dereliction of its duties to the ASA and Comair pilots.

“Brand Scope” Defined

ALPA has called for “brand scope,” as if it were a new union strategy intended to address changes in the industry. But examination reveals that “brand scope” is yet another ALPA euphemism for permitting Delta pilots to bargain whatever scope they desire with senior management, thus leaving the ASA and Comair pilots to vie for the leftovers. For example:


-- All flying ultimately belongs to the “mainline” pilots for scope purposes who may bargain any scope they please.
-- “Mainline” pilots allowed to unilaterally redefine “regional” or “feeder” flying.
-- Wholly-owned jobs and flying used by “mainline” pilots in their negotiations.
-- Wholly-owned bargaining subordinated to “mainline” bargaining.
-- “Mainline” pilots only required to “confer” with wholly-owned pilots.
-- ALPA national assumes no responsibility for actions of its “mainline” pilot groups.
-- Wholly-owned pilots have no standing to object.

It should be clear that ALPA's calls for “brand scope” amount to only a new marketing plan to sell an old product that doesn't work and only harms those so unfairly treated.

Actions Do Speak Louder Than Words

If you asked ALPA's leaders to define “Brand Scope,” they would probably tell you that it hasn't been defined in specific terms and that it's up to each “family” of affiliated pilot groups to work out the details. Don't be deceived. “Brand Scope” is defined, not by words, but by ALPA's actions—at the mainline bargaining table.

Delta Air Lines: Without first seeking the approval of the ASA and Comair pilots, ALPA has proposed to management that the Delta pilots be given “career” security within the Delta Brand (i.e. special employment rights as ASA and Comair.) “Brand Scope” is also reportedly part of DALPA's latest concessionary proposal.[2]

US Airways: Without first seeking the approval or input from the ALG, PDT, and PSA pilots, ALPA negotiated and implemented LOA 91 which greatly expanded the mainline pilot's control over the placement of small jets within the US Airways system. LOA 91 granted displaced mainline pilots super-seniority and special employment rights at all carriers within the US Airways “Brand” and its egregious terms were imposed upon ALPA's “regional” members on a “take it or leave it basis.”

United: Without first seeking the input or approval of its ALPA code-share affiliates, ALPA imposed Jets-for-Jobs on all 70-seat jets carrying the United code.

Northwest: Without first seeking the input or approval of the Pinnacle or Mesaba pilots, the Northwest MEC decided its negotiating committee will allocate flying within the NWA brand and has crafted bargaining proposals that would require that NWA pilots fly all 70-seat jets (i.e. new “preferred” alter-ego entity or Jets-for-Jobs.)[3]

Traps and Truths

Trap #1: “Brand Scope” takes many years to implement.
Truth: ALPA is obligated to protect the rights and interests of the ASA and Comair pilots. As such, ALPA cannot ignore duties owed today by promising to act properly tomorrow.

Trap #2: The mainline interests must negotiate on behalf of the “regional” carriers because they can't access the “real” management team.
Truth: This is a ploy to keep the “regional” pilots in the dark concerning ALPA's specific proposals and to hide the fact that ALPA's mainline interests use the small jet and its pilots as bargaining capital. Management must bargain with whomever ALPA sends to the table. ALPA, not management, determines “access” to the process and the relevant information.

Trap #3: The “Brand Scope” item listed in Delta-ALPA's recent proposal was just a “place-holder” on the agenda to be filled in later if the parties so choose.
Truth: ALPA's own definition of “Brand Scope” calls for the effected pilot groups to agree in advance before anything is negotiated with management. The fact that the ASA and Comair MEC’s did not authorize the Delta MEC to place anything on the agenda, much less agree to “Brand Scope,” suggests that “Brand Scope” is not what ALPA claims it to be. “Brand Scope” is off to a “Bad Start”.

Summary

Brand Scope is defined by ALPA's actions, not words. To-date, ALPA's actions at every other “mainline” carrier proves that Brand Scope is nothing more than a new label for old practices. In the year since “Brand Scope” was advanced by ALPA, two of the union’s largest carriers have unilaterally imposed their “brand” of Jets for Jobs and new small jet restrictions; while two more major carriers appear to be planning the same.

However, unlike less fortunate pilot groups, the ASA and Comair pilots have engaged in a vigorous defense of our rights. You can prevent the unilateral imposition of Brand Scope by supporting these efforts and staying informed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] ALPA to US District Court in Ford v. ALPA.
[2] December 2003 “Negotiator's Notepad” and published reports concerning ALPA's July 20, 2004 proposal to Delta Management.
[3] Northwest MEC Code-a-phone message dated July 16, 2004

You guys are having quite the little RJDC circle jerk on this thread, aren't you?
 
Ted Striker said:
You guys are having quite the little RJDC circle jerk on this thread, aren't you?
When YOU get the chance to give up your seniority to J4J and find youself branded by scope, I'll bet you'll be eager to join the circle.
 
Surplus,

Man, you must love spreading fear and loathing for no reason. There is no J4J on the table and if there ends up being one in some sort of double-super-secret negotiations I'll eat my hat. :)

Actually its pretty dusty from being laid off but you get my drift....maybe I can eat my "new widget" wings since we're going back to the old one.

FYI, we just had another huge bid close with hundreds of F/O positions remaining unfilled...when recalled, we'll actually be flying airplanes. I don't agree with some pilots' opinions that DALPA is trying to get some deal for the furloughees/bottom feeders...its doesn't make sense as we are a small part of the overall seniority list. Again, I think the J4J fears are not justified and the RJDC is just preying on people's fears and the uncertainties of this business.

What I want to know is how the RJDC is being blown into mythical proportions as some sort of organization that actually DOES anything. Its a handful of guys with some lawyers on retainer and a website distributing nastygrams. C'mon....if successful they will make some rich lawyers richer, and handful of pilots will get a few grand if they are lucky. God help us ALL if the concept of Scope clauses go away....it'll be nice being a 767 Captain at $50,000 per year. Wonder what the RJs will pay....$30k?

Have fun..
 
surplus1 said:
When YOU get the chance to give up your seniority to J4J and find youself branded by scope, I'll bet you'll be eager to join the circle.

When YOU pull YOUR head out of your a$$, you won't see me in the circle.
 
Vortilon said:
Surplus,

Man, you must love spreading fear and loathing for no reason. There is no J4J on the table and if there ends up being one in some sort of double-super-secret negotiations I'll eat my hat. Actually its pretty dusty from being laid off but you get my drift....maybe I can eat my "new widget" wings since we're going back to the old one :)
Guess I'm making progress then. If I'm spreading fear and loathing for no reason that means I've learned to emulate my mainline friends. If there's no J4J on the table or under the table, I promise you I won't complain. Please don't eat your hat, those things are expensive. Don't eat the wings either, particularly if they're going back to the old ones, that's nice. I wish we could do that and get rid of the WalMart costume jewelry we're wearing now. Expecially that ugly widget in the wrong place.

.

FYI, we just had another huge bid close with hundreds of F/O positions remaining unfilled...when recalled, we'll actually be flying airplanes. I don't agree with some pilots' opinions that DALPA is trying to get some deal for the furloughees/bottom feeders...its doesn't make sense as we are a small part of the overall seniority list. Again, I think the J4J fears are not justified and the RJDC is just preying on people's fears and the uncertainties of this business.
Well I'm sure happy to hear that the slots are opening and there are vacancies for you to fill. That's great news and I hope it continues. I hope too that the J4J fears re Delta are unwarranted. However, there's a whole lot of history out there which is very real. We haven't become the victims as yet, but the crime is being commited all around us. That's cause enough to lock the doors and start a neighborhood watch.

What I want to know is how the RJDC is being blown into mythical proportions as some sort of organization that actually DOES anything. Its a handful of guys with some lawyers on retainer and a website distributing nastygrams. C'mon....if successful they will make some rich lawyers richer, and handful of pilots will get a few grand if they are lucky. God help us ALL if the concept of Scope clauses go away....it'll be nice being a 767 Captain at $50,000 per year. Wonder what the RJs will pay....$30k?
Maybe the RJDC doesn't do much from your perspective. From my perspective it has kept the ALPA wolf from our door. Considering that our union has a dozen of its best legal minds trying to figure out how to stop the handful of guys and their lone lawyer, it seems the powerful don't share your views. If successful there won't be any money to speak of so we won't even recover the costs and the lawyer won't be getting rich any time soon. Now, if we can make the rottoen parts of the predatory scope go away, your 767 Captain's pay will be determined by the insolvency you have helped to create just as it is today. We will continue to fare about the same, unless you manage to bankrupt the airline. Maybe the RJs won't pay much seeing as how the mainline fellas are rushing to fly them for less, but at least we will keep the ones we have and maybe add some more if the market permits.

I confess it will be nice to be freed from indentured service, even if we have to fly for less. We can always raise our pay by flying something bigger maybe. What you think, nice? YES!

You know I was wondering ... If everytime some mainline group underbids what we fly by $30 bucks an hour we were to underbid what you fly by $50 bucks an hour, where do you think it would wind up?

Take care.
 
Last edited:
Ted Striker said:
When YOU pull YOUR head out of your a$$, you won't see me in the circle.
Is that the product of your age, your IQ, your education or all three?
 
Surplus1,


Come on man, you think that it is "our fault" that the company is in the shape it is in? We are a fixed cost----and we have offered pay cuts (14%) over a year ago which would have helped. Had we given the whole lion's share ($1 billion or $800 million....) a year ago, then the current creditors would not have even thought about joining in---and that would have cost us even more down the road---with a certain Chap 11 filing. Our delay (in my opinion) was a calculated move, and in the end we will still give the same amount anyways---with an extra $300-400 million a year break from the creditors, vendors, etc..... If you think we should have given sooner due to the higher fuel costs etc....then you guys should have done it too. We all fly planes that burn gas. But really, try to get off the "it's all the mainline pilots' fault" kick---you are starting to sound like our stews---who all drink the management koolaid..... Oh yeah, I remember now----I was the one who sold the fuel hedges when we really didn't have to.....my fault.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General Lee said:
Surplus1,


Come on man, you think that it is "our fault" that the company is in the shape it is in?
General :

Yes actually. Certainly there have been plenty other contributing factors, but you may remember my ranting on this board four years ago that Contract 2000 was simply unsustainable and that Delta pilots would never see the compensation schedules for the later years of the deal. There simply was not enough money ( even in Delta's boom years ) to pay that much.

Management is equally to blame. First, they should have never agreed to the deal. Mullins had a 5 year time horizon. He felt that Delta's pay would be matched by American, then Northwest & Continental - which would level the playing field. We know that never happened.

Also, Mullin decided the best way to survive 9/11 was to leverage the company with all the available cash to out live United, US Air and American. He figured one or more of the competitors would be gone by now. We know this is not happening on schedule either.

But placing the blame does little to fix the current situation. You and your MEC do realize that a significant restructuring is required.

~~~^~~~
 
Last edited:
surplus1 said:
Is that the product of your age, your IQ, your education or all three?

You're so smart and clever, I hope when I grow up I can be just like you. (In case you didn't catch the sarcasm, I was laying it on pretty thick.)

Actually, it is a product of my IQ and education. I am sharp enough to realize that you have your head in your a$$. You guys have fun in your self serving circle jerk.
 
Fins,

It's Leo Mullin, not Mullins. At least that's what it says on his golden parachute. ;)
 
Vortilon said:
Fins,

It's Leo Mullin, not Mullins. At least that's what it says on his golden parachute. ;)
Don't confuse Fins, he and his RJDC buddies are having a hard enough time inventing their altered reality then to be bothered with hypertechnicalities like truthfulness and accuracy.
 
Last edited:
General Lee said:
Surplus1,


Come on man, you think that it is "our fault" that the company is in the shape it is in?
General, this thread is about brand scope and its impact on us, not your money concessions.
 

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