BRAC Question?

[popgoesbubble]

Ok Guys got another topic and I want to hear from you Active/Guard guys on this.

Its my understanding that when BRAC's are done its done to Streamline and "Save" Money. But I was reading that up in MA the 102nd Fighter wing is moving from its base in Otis to another base in MA thats a A-10 unit I think its the 104th who's A-10 are relocating to AR. The Article went on to say that the MA Guard would have to pour in 75-120 million in the New Base it was occuping so that it could support the F-15A's

So is this Really saving Money first off? Secondly when ever a BRAC come's out you see every senator and Congressman/Women come out even the Anti Military ones vowing to save there State units for the obvious reasons not that they really like the military but those Voting jobs that they could Lose in the next election.

So do you think it is a really a good Idea to have state Air National Guard Units because sometimes it seems that units that really should be deactivated due to overlaping capabilities with other banches or flying an outdated aircraft/mission are somehow saved due to Political pressure and sometimes the end results are other units that could have used the money to buy newer A/C ie F-22 (still think we need more then the 183) are forced to make due.

The Otis issue is just one example. but look at what there doing in W. Virginia building a whole new base to support C-5's when that money could be better spent on buying more C-17 or C-5M's

I like the Idea of moving Reserve units into Active duty units like there doing with the Virginia National Guard at Richmond it seems to make sense. I would rather see Guard bases shut down and relocated to Active duty bases taking the money saved from closing the base's and buying the Guard units there own aircraft instead of sharing aircraft like what Magnums unit is doing. But then your back to the same issue of Politicans interfering with Future BRAC's for the Vote/Job.

 

[Jafo73]

there could be long term savings worth more then the cost of relocating a unit. But it's all political, so who really knows...

 

[LearLove]

so who gets to fly thoes f15s at barnes? the unit that is there or the guys from otis? what about the guys down the road in BDL. everytime I fly in, there are less and less A-10's on the ramp (unless they are hiding them in the hangars). Will Barnes give jobs to BDL guys?

3 units worth of pilots in one geographic area but only one unit actual planes. doesn't seem too eff. to me.

also, isn's ACy supposed to get f15s or is that not going to happen? what about the A-10's at NXX. A guy at my local airport told me they were closing but then I hear F-16's - but I doubt that because you guys on here say there is an overall cut in f16 units. Anyone?

Kind of sad as of late at nxx with the P-3s and C-130s gone.

 

[popgoesbubble]

so who gets to fly thoes f15s at barnes? the unit that is there or the guys from otis? what about the guys down the road in BDL. everytime I fly in, there are less and less A-10's on the ramp (unless they are hiding them in the hangars). Will Barnes give jobs to BDL guys?

3 units worth of pilots in one geographic area but only one unit actual planes. doesn't seem too eff. to me.

also, isn's ACy supposed to get f15s or is that not going to happen? what about the A-10's at NXX. A guy at my local airport told me they were closing but then I hear F-16's - but I doubt that because you guys on here say there is an overall cut in f16 units. Anyone?

Kind of sad as of late at nxx with the P-3s and C-130s gone.

The A-10's at barnes are getting sent to the AR Air National Guard unit not sure if its the one that flew F-16's and the BDL A-10's are going away as well not sure to what unit maybe maryland. they will become a A-10 MX base and will gain a C-21 Flying role aswell.

Don't no about the Atlantic city unit getting F-15's I do know that Montana is trading in it F-16's for F-15's and the 125th down at JAX will get the first F-15's with the new APG-63(V)3 Radar.

 

[McGillicutty]

BRAC, shmack. The commission voted to close Cannon but ... well, I don't even want to say it.

 

[popgoesbubble]

Yeah I think were shrinking our forces way too thin. deactivating the 27th wing I thought was a mistake.
one positive thought is that the Reserve's and Guard units will gain these aircraft Block 40(42) 50(52) this and the CCIP program will make our active duty/ Reserve units more compatible when deploying together with the exception of engines.

it is amazing to look back 15 years when a lot of higher ups thought the F-16 would never be able to fill the shoes of the F-4G APR-38/47 in the SEAD role. but now the latest F-16's have leaped ahead in the SEAD/DEAD Role with the advent of sofeware M4.2+ allowing the carriage of a Sniper ATP and the HTS Pod cued to JHMCS with HARM, JASSM and JDAM weapons this in my opinion makes the F-16 the ultimate Weasel.

Though I wonder if adding the Conformal fuel tanks like the UAE did to there F-16's Block 60 would help out and free up 1-2 weapon stations under the wing? but this is something for Magnum to answer.

 

[Weasel Keeper]

So do you think it is a really a good Idea to have state Air National Guard Units because sometimes it seems that units that really should be deactivated due to overlaping capabilities with other banches or flying an outdated aircraft/mission are somehow saved due to Political pressure and sometimes the end results are other units that could have used the money to buy newer A/C ie F-22 (still think we need more then the 183) are forced to make due.

I'm not sure who's flying outdated aircraft these days in the ANG. Sure, my unit (122FW, IN ANG) flies block 25 F-16Cs, most are 84-85 models, but they've been upgraded so much in reality they are about as equal to block 40s I believe and are now called F-16C+.

We just returned from Iraq where our (and VT's) ANG unit smoked the active duty AF in all stats (FMC, sorties, QA inspections, etc).

As far as the F-22, I'm still waiting to see one do something in the real world. It is an amazing aircraft but it's not proven yet, and until we see a real A2A threat I'm not too worried about needing any more than what we have.

 

[dtfl]

Ok Guys got another topic and I want to hear from you Active/Guard guys on this.

Its my understanding that when BRAC's are done its done to Streamline and "Save" Money. But I was reading that up in MA the 102nd Fighter wing is moving from its base in Otis to another base in MA thats a A-10 unit I think its the 104th who's A-10 are relocating to AR. The Article went on to say that the MA Guard would have to pour in 75-120 million in the New Base it was occuping so that it could support the F-15A's

So is this Really saving Money first off? Secondly when ever a BRAC come's out you see every senator and Congressman/Women come out even the Anti Military ones vowing to save there State units for the obvious reasons not that they really like the military but those Voting jobs that they could Lose in the next election.

So do you think it is a really a good Idea to have state Air National Guard Units because sometimes it seems that units that really should be deactivated due to overlaping capabilities with other banches or flying an outdated aircraft/mission are somehow saved due to Political pressure and sometimes the end results are other units that could have used the money to buy newer A/C ie F-22 (still think we need more then the 183) are forced to make due.

The Otis issue is just one example. but look at what there doing in W. Virginia building a whole new base to support C-5's when that money could be better spent on buying more C-17 or C-5M's

I like the Idea of moving Reserve units into Active duty units like there doing with the Virginia National Guard at Richmond it seems to make sense. I would rather see Guard bases shut down and relocated to Active duty bases taking the money saved from closing the base's and buying the Guard units there own aircraft instead of sharing aircraft like what Magnums unit is doing. But then your back to the same issue of Politicans interfering with Future BRAC's for the Vote/Job.

What about the wonderful idea of closing the Dobbins ARB C130H2 schoolhouse (complete with sims) and relocating it to the Nashville, TN ANG!??!? Why not just LEAVE IT AT DOBBINS?!?!

Politics.

 

[Scrapdog]

As far as the F-22, I'm still waiting to see one do something in the real world. It is an amazing aircraft but it's not proven yet, and until we see a real A2A threat I'm not too worried about needing any more than what we have.

This is the standard statement most uninformed folks make. The F-22 was not designed for this type of war. The visionaries were looking much deeper into the future when the created the F-22 and all of its capes. The F-22 was designed for a very robust 4th gen air-air threat with added ability to strike deep into enemy territory that still had active double digit SAMs. Enemy countries are continuously evolving both their tactics and their technology, which makes it even more crucial we continuously update our B-2 and strive for more F-22's.

When this (and hopefully never) type of war does kick off, the F-22 will go into places the F-16/F-15/F-18 (4th gen aluminum a/c) would never think of going into.

 

[stonewall]

I'm not sure who's flying outdated aircraft these days in the ANG. Sure, my unit (122FW, IN ANG) flies block 25 F-16Cs, most are 84-85 models, but they've been upgraded so much in reality they are about as equal to block 40s I believe and are now called F-16C+.

We just returned from Iraq where our (and VT's) ANG unit smoked the active duty AF in all stats (FMC, sorties, QA inspections, etc).

As far as the F-22, I'm still waiting to see one do something in the real world. It is an amazing aircraft but it's not proven yet, and until we see a real A2A threat I'm not too worried about needing any more than what we have.

The C+ is actually a little better than the old 40T7 tape, but not quite as capable as the new Block 40 4.2+ tape. Close, but not quite there.

Not surprised at the performance of the Guard. We had a weapons load comp here at Langley that was heavily hyped by the leadership (base paper and all that). Well, the ANG team won and set a time record in doing so. Crickets....The results were not highly publicized. Go figure.

If you're seeing an F-22 in action, it means were at war with China, Russia, or Iran. It's best to keep this thing in the holster and hope we never have to use it. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[popgoesbubble]

Magnum/Scrapdog are your F-22's wired for AIM-9X and JHMCS? I also heard somewhere that you guys are Voice line only? No Link 16 terminals is this a problem or a non issue for you guys? or was this designed back when the F-22 was designed for the Air-Air role only?

It would seem to me that with the Air to ground role your developing GBU-32 and GBU-39/B that having Link 16 would allow you the benefit of using ISR assets like E-8's and RC-135 to feed targets via data link or have you guys evolved passed Link 16 with something that is still black?

Also was it a challenge going from the Sim straight to the aircraft since there's no B models.

Thanks for for any info guys

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
I've talked to a couple of current 102nd FW guys about the whole deal at Otis. Apparently, it will be cheaper over the "long-haul" to operate the F-15s out of Barnes than at Otis because they will have more part-timers vs. "Guard bums" in the flying squadron. I think that there was also some discussion about the fact that it cost too much money to operate the airfield as a dedicated Air National Guard base. Ironically, the airfield will remain OPEN for the Coast Guard and Army National Guard units there. My theory is that Otis is ultimately still going to have a detachment of jets on alert vs. building a new facility at BDL which I believe is the plan.
I honestly don't understand why the heck they aren't locating to Westover and closing Barnes, but alot of stuff I've witnessed in a lifetime associated with military as both a dependent, active duty and now retiree doesn't make any sense...
Anyway, I am going to really miss the F-15s at Otis. Otis has a long history and lineage associated with the Air Defense and for good reason. Simple geography and unfettered access to "Whiskey" areas for air intercept training, ACM/BFM, etc...

Regards,

Former 551st AEW&C Wing Air Force brat Otis AFB, MA 1963-66 (Dad was a LCOL on the wing staff and EC-121H pilot)

 

[KCPilot]

The Tanker Issue....

Here is another good one. Sept 2008 there will be approx 75 tankers left on the whole West Coast. So the receiver to tanker ratio will be about 5 to 1. Then they built up the Midwest and East Coast units in some cases with over approx 116 tankers in a 300 nm radius? Don't understand that one!

So now the receivers on the West Coast are having a hard time with currency, sometimes over 400 AR request going unfilled in a quarter and we're not even down to the 75 tankers.

Bottom line, if you look and the Blue and Red states you can really see who won and lost in the last BRAC. All politics!! I know, since I was effected and as of last month no longer fly a mil jet but a nice little desk since there are few flying jobs out West!

Cheers!

 

[pkober]

I like the Idea of moving Reserve units into Active duty units like there doing with the Virginia National Guard at Richmond it seems to make sense. I would rather see Guard bases shut down and relocated to Active duty bases taking the money saved from closing the base's and buying the Guard units there own aircraft instead of sharing aircraft like what Magnums unit is doing. But then your back to the same issue of Politicans interfering with Future BRAC's for the Vote/Job.

The ANG doesn't want to move some of it's units onto AD bases because they would lose some recruiting potential. Example, if we moved all ANG units in IL to Scott AFB it would completely alienenate "up state" IL.

The Guard is a state militia and traces its roots back far longer than any AD force in our country. It needs to be kept as free from AD interference as possible. Plus the constitution says we should avoid having a large standing military. It's encourages state militias. Plus, if we spend too much time on an AD base we will spend too much time shining our boots and not learning to fight .

Moving ANG units to AD bases and intermixing the two could cause a serious loss of ANG unit identities and effectiveness.

 

[Slice121]

I was actually the project officer for the M3.3/3.4+ OFP, which was the precursor to 4.2+. They're pretty much the same tape. 4.1+ was the Block 40 version of 3.4+ (post CCIP mod), and 4.2+ is the first common tape between 40's and 50's. I agree that the CCIP Viper is extremely combat capable. Pretty much what you want, you get. Between Sniper and HTS (and Link 16), the squadron is very flexible at delivering the required munitions to the battlefield. The biggest problem is getting guys enough sorties to stay proficient at all the missions. LOTS of variety in training...unlike what I'm doing now.

Anyway, I loved the Block 50 and felt like it could do pretty much anything you wanted it to do. As far as conformal tanks, it's a mixed blessing. You can't put HARMs on those stations due to the rocket boost hitting the stab, but you could put some JDAMs or LGBs on 'em. It takes away G available (about a 7 g limit), so it sorta kills your multi-role ability if you get in a visual merge (as unlikely as that may be).

I've been out of the Block 50 since late '04, but I've kept up with it through other buds in the test world. Some of my info may be dated, and we did nothing with the conformal tanks. What I passed is just what I got from DT buds and bar talk.

You forgot the most important issue on the Viper and conformal tanks...they're ugly as hell!