Baron vs. Seneca

[daddysquared]

Why are Barons so much more expensive than Senecas? 1998 Baron with 1300 TT, runs about $650,000. 1999 Seneca V with 1300 TT runs about $450,000.

I've flown a Baron. Nice aircraft. Have not flown a Seneca V. Anyone out there flown both?

 

[joe_pilot]

The freight company I used to fly for had the same quandry. Beechcraft products are much more expensive to purchase, replacements parts are more expensive, etc., etc., but they break down less often than the seneca. But the seneca is cheaper, parts cheaper, etc.

Even though they have a few barons (55's and 58's), they went with the seneca(II) primarily. They decided the better ice protection and careful maintenance would bring them out ahead.

Edit: Also the counter-rotating props (no critical engine) make the seneca somewhat safer.

 

[Grumman guy]

The Seneca is the worst airplane I have ever flown in my life, inversly the Baron is best airplane I have ever flown in my life. The only thing these two A/C have in common is that they are both twins. The only thing I can say about the Seneca is that it burns less gass. But its 30kts slower than a Baron so it kinda makes up for it.

You get what you pay for, and then some!

 

[Grumman guy]

Lets think about the myth that counter rotating props are safer. Instead of one critical engine now you have two. There is no competition as to wich of the two performs better on one mill. The Baron hands down. Cleaner airplane with more ponies. No contest. I have 500 hours in both A/C all different models and there is absolutley no comparison

 

[RichardRambone]

Senecas can be pretty but they are shatty to land. Never flown a Baron but Ive heard good things from all. I used to be on the cusp about Senecas but after a few more hours in one they are shat.

 

[satpak77]

you get what you pay for....1965 Hawkers are cheap also

sarcasm aside, with a capable pilot, the Baron is safer, more effective, and the overall better airplane. I have flown both and would go with a Baron any day of the week.

The Seneca is basically a Piper Lance with two engines bolted to the main wing.

 

[AA717driver]

Seneca? Oh, you mean "Twin Saratoga". Now, I get it...

Seriously, the Baron is more expensive because it's worth every penny. I got my multi in a Be-58 ($75/hr. wet... Yeah, I was wet! ).

What Grumman guy said X2. TC

 

[Lead Sled]

I've flown a Baron. Nice aircraft. Have not flown a Seneca V. Anyone out there flown both?

I've flown several different model Barons and some Senecas. It's pretty much like comparing a Dodge Minivan to a Lexus SUV, in other words... No comparison. The old saying applies - you get what you pay for. It's not that the Seneca is a bad airplane, it's not; it's just the the Baron outclasses it in every way.

'Sled

 

[joe_pilot]

The Seneca is the worst airplane I have ever flown in my life

You need to fly some more airplanes!
Wow. Did a Seneca steal your girlfriend or something? As far as counter-rotating props being myth, well that's just not true.

Look, I agreee that if someone was going to give me one plane or the other I would take the Baron in a second, hands down, it DOES outclass the Seneca, it is supposed to. The Baron has about a 150 lb edge on useful load(55 vs II), is about 15 kts faster, and burns more gas. But the reality is that there is a $200,000 price difference between these two planes. Honestly, if you can afford the $650k you can probably find a c90 that would put the baron to shame. Maybe an aerostar?

 

[Grumman guy]

You need to fly some more airplanes!
Wow. Did a Seneca steal your girlfriend or something? As far as counter-rotating props being myth, well that's just not true.

I have flown plenty of airplanes and can honestly say the seneca II-V flies like crap. No visibility, ailerons are set in cement, ineffective elevator, engines are way too high strung to be reliable and to top it all off, its a plastic piper piece of crap. And believe me I have my reasons to loath this pig as much as I do and it has nothing to do with significant others.

Please explain to me how counter rotating props are safer?(to be continued)

The origional question was "why are Barons so much more expensive?" Refer to my previous posts.

Comparing a C90 to a baron is a apples to oranges comparison. You cant compare the two. Even though you can find a nice C90 for what a new and some used Barons cost the operating costs are horendously diffrent.

As for the Aerostar crack. A 56TC Baron will eat any version of the Aerostar(Machen superstar and all) for absolute lunch any day of the week and twice on sunday.

There are lots of very nice Barons on the Market at comparable prices to any Seneca. You can get a real nice mid 80's 58 Baron with all the bells and whistles for what a mid 90's Seneca would cost and be much better off.

And so on and so forth.

So like I said Senecas suck

 

[BigLebowski]

I flew cancelled checks and had the opportunity to fly both aircraft. Here's what I honestly think...

Baron...very powerful, fun to fly. Ice-protection sucked. The alcohol windshield was horrible, and I found with the thin leading edges the boots were horrible as well. The baron is only about 20 knots faster than the Seneca II. The Baron is not much roomier, I don't feel it has a better "view" from the cockpit. As far as the single engine...yes it does outperform the Seneca, no question.

Seneca...not as powerful, much more fuel efficient, TURBOCHARGED engines. The anti-ice and de-ice on the Seneca was incredible compared to the Baron. Single engine performance...no not as good but you can still hold 100 knots easy at 6000 ft. fully loaded. Although, a friend of mine had a similar route and sometimes we would "race" the Seneca vs. the Baron. With the turbocharged engines I was able to get up to 12,000 no problem and with me at 12,000 and him at 6,000 in the Baron...our speeds were the same. It was always easier to get out of the ice in the Seneca too because of the Turbochargers.

As a whole both airplanes are good. It mostly depends what you will be using it for. I flew both a/c in the Northeast during the winter and always felt more comfortable in the ice in the Seneca. I will say though the Baron "feels" more like a larger, more stable a/c...but it depends on what you're looking for.

If you have anymore questions feel free to PM me...the most fun I've had flying was in the Baron and the Seneca...liked it better than flying the EMB-145.

 

[joe_pilot]

Dude, lighten up. Get some fiber or something. Why are you so personaly involved in this issue? Opinions are like, well, you know...and they all stink. I'm not trying to piss you off or anything, hence the after my comment. It's just that I have a few thousand hours flying all-weather freight (mostly in the senca II) in and think it is a pretty decent airplane. I thought he might want my opinion. While my opinion is no more valid than yours, I thnk it might be more objective, i.e. "Senecas suck."

Come to SLC I'll buy you a beer and we'll talk about how the Caravan is the best airplane ever.

Back to DaddySquared's original question, since he included prices, I make the assumption that money is an issue. Comparing those two planes, I would pick the Seneca and use the $200k left over to buy another vacation home and put $20k in escrow for repairs. Yeah, the aerostar comment was a crack, but they are fast and can be found cheap. Check this one out. Sure, the c90 s a different class airplane than the baron, but if I can buy it for near the same price (as the afore-mentioned $650k baron) I will pick the Kig Air.

Once again, if someone is giving me the airplane, or I can find a good deal, I will pick the Baron every time. But the former is never the case, right?

Be Cool.

-JP

 

[joe_pilot]

With the turbocharged engines I was able to get up to 12,000 no problem and with me at 12,000 and him at 6,000 in the Baron...our speeds were the same. It was always easier to get out of the ice in the Seneca too because of the Turbochargers.

Absolutely. The Seneca can maintain 40 inches of manifold pressure all the way up to 12k with a service ceiling of 25k, albeit pretty anemic.

...the most fun I've had flying was in the Baron and the Seneca...

Ditto. I miss it....too bad the money wasn't there.

 

[Grumman guy]

You wanna fight me Joe pilot Huh Do ya!!!!

Just kiddin' You are right about the opinions thing. Just had some real bad experiences with the Seneca.

Yeah I love the ole Van, hell of a bird. Started gettin in to some real ice for the first time though and didnt seem to have much problem. I did get out of it but didnt lose much A/S or have any funky controllability issues. I would love some ice advice if you can find it in your heart to forgive my brashness over the seneca issue.

And I will take that beer as long as we can have a shot of jim beam with it!

One last thing for the Big Lebowski. What do you see when you look at the runway on downwind in the Seneca?

Cheers Gents

 

[joe_pilot]

You wanna fight me Joe pilot Huh Do ya!!!!

Just kiddin' You are right about the opinions thing. Just had some real bad experiences with the Seneca.

Yeah I love the ole Van, hell of a bird. Started gettin in to some real ice for the first time though and didnt seem to have much problem. I did get out of it but didnt lose much A/S or have any funky controllability issues. I would love some ice advice if you can find it in your heart to forgive my brashness over the seneca issue.

And I will take that beer as long as we can have a shot of jim beam with it!

One last thing for the Big Lebowski. What do you see when you look at the runway on downwind in the Seneca?

Cheers Gents

Oh, so I mention the Caravan and you change your tune, huh? I see how you are.

As far as bad experiences go, well if we let that stop us, we would have given up on women by now, right? Funny thing about flying and women: We love them both, they're really expensive and there's always a better one around that we want to upgrade to. And you never forget your first: N869RR and.....and.....and some chick in High School.

Ice advice? Stay out of freezing rain,climb if you get into it, don't trust pireps and don't ever be afraid to use the boots. There's this big controversy about waiting, don't wait. Both arguments seem valid, but I always just waited until there was a decent accumulation. (Ok, honestly, when I first got started in ice I was scared SH!Tless and stared at the wings the whole flight!) When in doubt, keep your landing speed up a little bit. Take-offs: Clean wing, clean wing, clean wing. Never, ever take off with frost, that NASA stat about losing 30-40% of lift is true.

Beam is ok, but Jameson is better. Here we go again.

 

[mrnolmts]

Please explain to me how counter rotating props are safer?(to be continued)

Safer? Well, the blade going down creates more thrust than the blade going up because it "takes a bigger bite out of the air". So, the center of thrust is a bit to the right of the spinner. On a non-counter rotating twin, this means that the right engine center of thrust is further away from the longitudal axis than the left. So, losing the left engine has a slightly more adverse effect on performance than losing the right. In other words, you'll run out of rudder (to counter yaw) a little bit quicker with the left engine out, than you'll do with the right engine out. On counter rotating twins you eliminate this, which I guess can be viewed as safer.

 

[Grumman guy]

I would have to say that on a Seneca, seminole, and dutchess that both engines are critical

 

[mrnolmts]

I would have to say that on a Seneca, seminole, and dutchess that both engines are critical

No argument there... Cheers!

 

[EDUC8-or]

I'm a bigger fan of the Baron, I liked the flight characteristics much more than the Seneca. The Seneca takes a little more muscle in the flare, especially to get a greaser when you're light.

If I had some money to spend on a twin I would get an Aztec. I flew a couple that could take off with full fuel, 6 people, and packed to the gills with luggage with lbs. to spare before MAX T/O weight.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Seneca = Flying schoolbus......or at best a 4x4 with bad tires and an alignment problem.

Baron = Mercedes

Now if you are talking about paying the bills.....well then you have to ask yourself how much driving that mercedes is worth?


After all, there is a reason you see more Schoolbusses and Trucks with bad tire out on the road than Mercedes!