B727, How much longer

[captnmayday]

Fellow Pilots:

Just wondering how much of a career is left fot someone with B727 F/O or F/E experience? How many companies are still operating and how much longer ...

Just curious

 

[flybrowntails]

ups is but the days are numbered.

 

[Rick1128]

The 727 is like the DC3, it will keep on flying. Who would have thought when the DC3 was first made that it would still be used commercially after 50 years. The basic reason is that no one else has built an aircraft to fill that gap. The 727 is in the same position. It has good short field ability plus good high, hot performance. The high engines allow rough, unimproved airports. And the aft airstair and APU allows for airports without basic support services. The basic type systems allow the aircraft to be maintained by low experienced maintenance personnal.

Also add in the fact that a good 727-200 can be purchased for around a million, add another or two for RVSM, Stage 3 hush kits and winglets. Only the later 737s equal the 727s size and they presently cost 35 million plus. And don't have all the above attributes of the 727. They burn less fuel than a 727, but for $30 million plus you can buy one heck of a lot of fuel.

What will happen is that they will become less and less visable at major airports until they almost disappear. They will be found more and more in smaller less developed areas.

 

[Alaskaairlines]

Alaska is a good example of a place where I can see them flying for a while!

 

[Peanut gallery]

Stage 4 is one problem in a couple of years. The next problem is in 2008 an EPA requirement will be the end for the JT-8 in the US.

The old gal will probably fly for years in other countries without these requirments.

 

[sydeseet]

I've heard a running joke about using the 727 to ferry pilots back from the desert after they dropped off the A320 that is going to be scrapped for retirement. Boeing builds a tank of an airplane, as long as there are parts and mechanics she will keep flying. I haven't heard of the EPA req. before but I believe it, although there are plenty of years to "tweak" the rules to allow older birds to keep flying.

 

[BigFlyr]

Stage 4 is one problem in a couple of years. The next problem is in 2008 an EPA requirement will be the end for the JT-8 in the US.

Interesting, but I'm sure they'll find ways around it by improving the hush kits or operating the engines at lower power settings to comply with the regs... Stage III requirements should have done away with the 20 series Lears also, right?

 

[Flyingtoohigh]

Let's see what domestic RVSM does to the 20-series Lears. I heard somebody was making a DRVSM kit for them, but it was upwards of $500,000 or something in that ballbark. Any ideas?

As for the 727-200, it'll be alive for quite awhile, though at smaller airports outside the US.

 

[Rick1128]

Too high, you might want to consider coming down a little bit. Get some more O2 to the brain. The 20 series RVSM mods are presently being advertised as around $160K. That will depend on many things including the aircraft serial number and wing. But from what I am seeing RVSM will not kill the 20, maintenance costs will. Primarily engine overhauls. When you program $400K per engine for overhaul and you have to keep all your fingers and toes crossed to keep it in that ballpark, there is not much benefit to keeping the aircraft flying. Plus the fact that GE is not supporting the engine and parts are becoming very difficult to find. These are the items that will actually kill the 20's.

 

[SabreFlyR]

"Primarily engine overhauls. When you program $400K per engine for overhaul and you have to keep all your fingers and toes crossed to keep it in that ballpark, there is not much benefit to keeping the aircraft flying. Plus the fact that GE is not supporting the engine and parts are becoming very difficult to find. These are the items that will actually kill the 20's."

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Actually I was told a few months back that GE is supporting the CF700, so it seems that parts for the CJ610 shouldn't be hard to come by. The cost is indeed getting out of hand, especially if your engines are cycling out.

The other alternative is to by used engines with time remaining and forget about overhauls. If you know where to look they are around.

I did see at the NBAA convention someone who is trying to mod the engine (CJ610) and it will have a 3000 hour hot section interval and a 10,000 hour TBO. Do not know the cost, but if it's doable and with stage three hush kit, it will breath some life into the 20 series for a few years anyway.

 

[Rick1128]

Our DM was told by Bizjet that parts are becoming very difficult to find. CJ610 service was moved to Brazil then moved back to the US. He was told that GE has not unpacked from that move and may not do so at this time. It has come to the point that parts that for years had a set life limit are now on condition. That saids a lot about the current parts situation.

As for used engines, it has been my experience that most of the ones out there are not worth the money. We were offered a -6 that was really a modified -5. I have used these before. The FCU has to be a modified -5 unit and they tend not to pass the burst test.

I personally would not give a lot of consideration to that extenstion program. Currently we have extentions to 6000 hour majors and 1500 hour Hots. And those engines get very doggy. I can not imagine what a 10,000 hour engine would be like.

The problem will be total cost. You look at the RJ44 retro. $1.2M. The problem is that you can by an early 35 for that and have an aircraft that will do much more. When the cost of the mods and the required maintenance is far and above the value of the aircraft, it will quickly go away.

 

[sydeseet]

We have a seldom used Lear 24 that is and absolute BLAST to fly. I hope everyone has a chance to fly an old dog with that kind of performance before they go away. Our owner says that come 2005 he will most likely began the process of selling her to someone with the intention of parting her out, a sad day indeed. I have great respect for an airframe that is over 30 years old and can still run with the pack day after day.

 

[Alaskaairlines]

I've watched a 23 or 24 do touch and goes at ANC, and thse guys were taking it to the fullest, the climb rate must have been around 8000 fpm if not more, do you know what the lears best climb rate is?

 

[Rick1128]

It really depends on the model, engines and conditions. Many of the early ones had a VSI that only went to 6000 FPM. Later ones it goes to 15000 FPM.

One night I took off out of Willow Run (aka Will it Run) in a 23 at full gross. It wasn't too warm about 70 degrees F. Had a brand new F/O. So I showed him a max performance TO. From brake release to 10,000 feet was 50 seconds. And the only reason it took that long was that I limited the pitch to 30 degrees. I was doing 250K out of 10,000.

The tired engines and the like are making more and more difficult to get that type of performance out of the 20's these days.

 

[varicam]

From the Air & Space Museum website:

"On December 14, 1965, another Model 23, flown by Henry Beaird and Ronald G. Puckett, with five other persons on board, left Wichita to climb to and reach an altitude of 40,000 feet in 7 minutes, 21 seconds. With an engine thrust-to-weight ratio of 1:2.2 pounds, a Model 23 can out climb an F-100 Super Sabre to 10,000 feet, and can be just as impressive on the way down. "

I've often wondered about the guys in the 1960's who transitioned from Twin Beech's and so on to the Lear. Must'a been one heck of a ride for the first 100 hours or so. I had a ton of jet time when I started flying a Lear 24. But, I was just hanging on the first 50 hours or so.

 

[Rick1128]

Used to fly with a guy who worked for Bill Lear and through him met may of the pilots at Experimental Flight Test at Lear. They told me some stories about the guys who came out of BE18's and 90's, if even half of them are true, it was one H*LL of a ride. And it was one H*LL of an airplane.

 

[Alaskaairlines]

50 seconds? Extremely impressive! Thats probably the closest you'll get to a fighter jet with a civilian airplane!