B-2s to the Guard

[Be 23]

More people ought to be concerned, but what you're seeing with the shift of Air Guard missions isn't just spreading them thinner. The last BRAC took the aircraft away from a lot of states and left them with UAV's, associate units, or nothing. I'm not sure if it's true, but somebody in the BRAC believed that you get more efficiency out of aircraft if you put them with both active duty and reserve units at the same time and at the same place. That's put a huge shift on the Air Guard. Nobody questions their commitment or competence, it's all about efficiency.

 

[Draginass]

And the F-16/F-15/A-10/C-5/C-17/C-130 is? What credintials do you have in stating that? What is the differentiating factor in making the B-2 that much more complex than any frontline fighter or cargo aircraft that currently plenty of part-timers are employing across the globe in both the guard and reserve? I'm currently in a guard unit flying F-16's with about 75% part time make-up and the part-timer's are extremely experienced and execute probably better than most full time active duty units out there. It may take a ride or two to spin a part-timer up to full strength if he's been out of the jet more than a few weeks, but after that and with what is true with most seasoned guard/reserve units...he'll employ the jet better than 90 percent of any active duty unit out there. And the St Louis F-15 unit is probably one of the most (if not the most) experienced units out there. I personally know a few guys in that unit and their hiring criteria. I'd say they probably have more than half of the cadre as F-15 weapon school grads and/or instructors. No offense, but I'm sure if they chose to - they could fly the piss out of the B-2. I've flown the F-15 but never the B-2...however I would imagine the B-2's mission is just slightly less complex than an 8 ship LFE escorting a strike package in the F-15.

On another note - the guard is also going to F-22. What's your opinion on that? I can tell you for a fact that the guard guys already done with training and employing the F-22 at Langley are doing great. Is that not a part-timer's airplane either by your standards? I'd have to say your analysis couldn't be further from the truth.

Before you jump to conclusions, stop and think, or maybe do something novel like ask me my reasoning.

The reason has nothing to do with individual abilty, but everything to do with mission, mission profiles, training requirements, maintainability, etc. Fighters, transports and tankers are less maintenance intensive and have training mission profiles that are generally shorter. Going in after work on Wednesday and doing a 2v2 can be done in a few hours, whereas a heavy bomber mission profile cannot. Also, if the B-2 is anything like the B-1, the maintenance requirements are very substancial. But as in most things involving the Guard and Reserve, the decision is based upon political considerations, not military requirements.

 

[Mud Eagle]

That rumor's just stupid enough to be true. B-1s in the guard was a mistake. The B-2 is not a part-timer's airplane.

Yeah, I can't imagine how tough it must be for a part timer to couple up the autopilot, fly an AFMSS-planned route to the target, and let the GPS-guided bombs rip from the LAR.

 

[Scrapdog]

Before you jump to conclusions, stop and think, or maybe do something novel like ask me my reasoning.

The reason has nothing to do with individual abilty, but everything to do with mission, mission profiles, training requirements, maintainability, etc. Fighters, transports and tankers are less maintenance intensive and have training mission profiles that are generally shorter. Going in after work on Wednesday and doing a 2v2 can be done in a few hours, whereas a heavy bomber mission profile cannot. Also, if the B-2 is anything like the B-1, the maintenance requirements are very substancial. But as in most things involving the Guard and Reserve, the decision is based upon political considerations, not military requirements.

I'm going to do something novel here and tell you you are correct and you're completely wrong.

You are correct in that a basic 2 v 2 can be done on a Wednesday afternoon with a pretty quick debrief, get some decent learning points and call it a day. And overall the mx req's for an F-16 for example are fairly minimal...i.e. the jet is pretty solid and generates a solid rate of sorties.

You are completely wrong in that the mindshift is going to more and more complex missions as our fighters, transports, tankers, and bombers get more upgrades to both software and equipment. Our mentality in focusing much less on the basic 2 v 2 mig 29 threat, and is instead focusing much more on the next generation threats such as su 27's...and integrating complex 4 v 4 scenario's or even more. For the air - ground portion...we're constantly evolving and creating more task intensive scenarios with upgrades to our targeting pods, NVG's, data links, and rover capabilities. I can tell you right now that if I'm going to do a complex mission for an upgrade ride or a checkride, it'll take me a hell of a lot longer to plan than just 30 min before my flight on a Wednesday afternoon (i.e. a lot of the day prior for my mission planning) to create a succesful scenario and execute effectively. And guess what...a lot of ANG guys are doing it more and more today.

In the not too distant future the ANG and reserves is going to be populated with F-22's, F-35's, and B-2's...whether you like it or not. When the ANG first got F-16's from their A-7's their mindset had to shift completely. But with hard work, experience, and dedication - they made it happen. And today the ANG and reserves are as top notch as any active duty unit, maybe even more so. The ANG and reserve guys will do just fine with the B-2 and frontline fighters such as the F-22 and F-35. The key factor will be attitude and hardwork (as Albie aluded to earlier). And with the typical ANG/AF res experience and work ethic - they will continue to be the best out there whether the mission planning and mx req's take 30 minutes or 30 hours.

Draginass - just out of curiousity...what is your mil background? And I'm in no way trying to chuck spears...I'd just like to know where you get your thinking from.

 

[Draginass]

My opinion is based upon past personal observation and knowledge of the challenges of operating B-1s in ANG units, albeit from 10-12 years ago (I retired in the late 90s). Your mileage may vary.

For instance, one ANG unit had to deploy once a year into my base so they could do live bomb drops. At the ANG base, the Q&D was insufficient for live loads and ranges were very very far away, so training suffered significantly.

The units did ok, but it must have been a lot of effort to make it work. Fighters, transports, and tankers are much more condusive to a part-time unit than heavy bombers, IMHO.

I don't know the B-2 well, but I do know bombers, so my opinion is worth no less than yours.

However, I do believe we rely much too heavily on the Guard and Reserve as a substitute, and not an adjunct, for active forces. The number of pilots on MLOA from their civilian jobs is pretty substancial.

My background? 22 years active duty. Retired Lt Col. IP KC-135. Initial cadre B-1 (1986). 12 years in the B-1. IP, Chief of Tactics, Operations Officer of Test Sq flying OT&E and TD&E, Deputy Group Commander, B-1 Operations Group. Presently employed in civil aviation as a B-747F Captain. Type ratings B-707/720, B-747, B-757, B-767. As you might expect, I fly with a lot of ANG and USAFR pilots.

 

[AlbieF15]

In other words, Draginass is a poser who doesn't know $hit....

In all seriousness...even some of the "easy" jobs these days demand a lot of time of the part timers. The min-run type just can't really do it anymore (IMHO). The training units like mine are "easy" when it comes to deployments and chem gear (training only and none, thank you...), but you are an IP every day...expected to be able to execute at an IP level. There aren't any "wingman" in my detachment. So--even an "easy" job isn't always so easy. There may be some cush jobs out there--I'd be interested in what they are and what guys think.

My Fedex bros who fly Vipers not only keep up with tons of different missions, many have had combat in OIF or the follow on campaigns since. Ditto the Hog guys and the C130s guys are always swamped. Several units I know have been activated for a while.

The budget says we are going to do it. Its up to us...active, reserve, and ANG...to find a way to make it work and use each other's strengths. We've heard all the same complaints....even up to a Wing CC level...about using ANG guys in active duty wings. The answer at the 4 star level is the same--make it work. The taxpayers are getting a pilot at a discount, and the money crunchers like the math. Politics aside--its the wave of the future. The guys who will be most successful will be the guys who can utilize their part time guys successfully and make it work. The guys who waste time being Don Quixote and fighting it are wasting their own precious resources.

This is coming from someone who "got mine..." I have no dog in this hunt anymore--I got my 19 years and 50 good points for year 20 as a part timer in an active duty wing. I want to see it work not just as a Guardsman, but as a taxpayer and as an American citizen. Having seen the growing pains at my base and watching other bases now doing the same thing, I think its safe to say the concept has been bought. Its up to those on the team now to make it work effectively. Our enemy is the threat, not the guy with the different MAJCOM patch or the guy who's W-2 comes from a state office.

 

[frog_flyer]

Sounds like draginass may be my new hero..

 

[Carl_Spackler]

If you take a look at the actual seat you are sitting in, it really is not that much different.

The key word here is "look". They may look the same, but they do not feel the same. I fly one, and I've ridden in the back. Far and away the worst airplane pax seat that I have ever sat in. The seats are so hard, my a$$ goes numb before we take off.

 

[JimNtexas]

Is it really true that B-2 pilots carry plywood boards onto the planes with them to use as beds?

 

[bagasticks]

Draginass, you would know, I once did a briefing/report on the B-1 in the guard and government accounting documents claim that the GA, and KS ANG operated the B-1 @ 9,000 dollars cheaper per flight hour due to higly experienced MX personnel (most are E-6 and above). I know several old mx folks from MAFB that claimed this as well. Have you heard this, or do you know it to be true. ?