ATP written expiration

[BGSkyGuy]

I think I have this one figured out but am getting some resistance from a friend so I will let you guys argue over it for a while.

A guy takes his ATP written on 1/1/00 while instructing part 61. A year later he gets hired on at a 135 op. Three years later he decides to take his ATP ride. Will he have to retake the written if he has maintained employment through the 135 op?

Thanks!

 

[Flymach2]

Provided the applicant is currently employed by and has successfully completed the operators approved and appropriate training program/requirements, they may use the expired knowledge test report at the time of the practical.

I'm not sure where the disagreement is coming from. Good luck.

Regards

 

[Andy Neill]

Provided the applicant is currently employed by and has successfully completed the operators approved and appropriate training program/requirements, they may use the expired knowledge test report at the time of the practical.

I'm not sure where the disagreement is coming from. Good luck.

Regards

(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a)(1) and (2) of this section, an applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate or an additional rating to an airline transport certificate may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that the applicant:
(1) Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved--
(i) Pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; and
(ii) Qualification training requirements appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; or.....

Using that bit from 61.39 as reference that is exactly what I maintained at SkyWest. The powers that be had other interpretations however.

To take the example to an extreme, someone takes the written while unemployed. He flips burgers for ten years and then gets on at an airline. When he upgrades, goes through the company's PIC qualification and type rating training, he can take the practical without having to retake the written. That was my stand.

 

[igneousy2]

may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report.

There is no interpretation here. The regulation is about as Black-and-White as a regulation ever gets. As long as you passed it ONCE in your entire life and you still have a copy of the test report than you can take the practical test for an ATP. period. end of discussion. I would think that the passing of the 121 approved training program is plenty of indication of having the adequate knowledge...remembering that an approved trainining program would have a knowledge test on regulations and operating procedures and systems knowledge.

I think you are falling victim to the fact that this question has come up before and somebody in the chief pilot's office made up an answer and that answer has become the gospel truth.

I can gurantee you that if SkyWest had to pay for your written test...this would have been addressed a long time ago...they don't have to...so you just have to do it. It doesn't get any better as you move to bigger airlines...in fact it gets worse...just get used to it.

Contrarary to reality...

Your First Class Medical converts to a Second Class after 6 months... (actually had a recruiter scratch up the resume I handed her...jeez)

Legal to Start - Legal to Finish...

You are not required by regulation to use the installed intercom hot-mic system below 18,000 feet in a jet...

You can exceed 250 knots below 10,000 when not in US airspace.

You don't have to slow to 200 knots below Class - B...I still cannot find a reference to - nor has anyone been able to show me " or clean maneuver " anywhere in the regs.

You can do any traffic pattern (left or right) you want at an uncontrolled field if you are IFR on a visual approach.

Visibility is "controlling"...as long as you have the vis, ceiling does not matter.

Anyway...I guess I'll just add

Your written test must be un-expired before taking the ATP practical test to the list of aviation lore.

Later

 

[DrewBlows]

You don't have to slow to 200 knots below Class - B...I still cannot find a reference to - nor has anyone been able to show me " or clean maneuver " anywhere in the regs.

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that.

§ 91.117 Aircraft speed.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).

You can do any traffic pattern (left or right) you want at an uncontrolled field if you are IFR on a visual approach.

Again, I'm not feeling you on this one.

§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.
(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—
(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

...and for good measure.

§ 91.127 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class E airspace.

(a) Unless otherwise required by part 93 of this chapter or unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class E airspace area, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class E airspace area must comply with the requirements of §91.126.

You are right about the expired ATP knowledge exam though, I was given my ATP today with a knowledge exam that was expired when I was hired by the company.

 

[DrewBlows]

Doh', I just picked up the sarcasm of igs post. My bad.

 

[BGSkyGuy]

It's ALIVE!!!!

Just to update you guys I spoke to an examiner the other day who told me that the expired written was not valid. I really don't understand the confusion here, it seems pretty black and white, but the examiner disagreeing with me made me take another look. I've got a call in to the FSDO and should hear back soon. I'll let you know.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

My Understanding

On face value, the ATP written officially expires after 24 calendar months, precluding you from taking the ATP practical exam.

However, if one is hired by say a 121 outfit within the 24 months and is still employed after this 2 year period, the ATP written results may be used for an upgrade and ATP certificate when the time comes with this particular airline.

If you leave the airline after say 4 years as an FO and go to another 121 airline, the ATP written is NO LONGER valid for upgrade at the second airline.

 

[A Squared]

Just to update you guys I spoke to an examiner the other day who told me that the expired written was not valid. I've got a call in to the FSDO and should hear back soon. I'll let you know.

A little additional discussion may be in order here.

Are you just going out and trying to get your ATP on your own, or are you trying to get your ATP issued on a part 135 PIC checkride?

It makes a difference. Originally, the intent of the exception was to allow the use of an expired knowledge test result on an upgrade ride for an operation requiring an ATP certificate. The regulation has evolved over the years, with the requirements growing looser with each step, but if you go back a ways, you will find that in order to use this exemption, you had to be:

1. Employed by an operator within 24 months of taking the ATP written.

2. That employment had to be continuous to the current date

3. The operator had to be one in which the ATP was a requirement for ATP, 121 or 135 *commuter* operation. It wasn't just any old 135 operation.

4. You had to have passed the upgrade training for and meet all the requirements for PIC in that operation.

That's the history behind the exemption. It's not just some freebie for the heck of it. It was specifically to use on an upgrade to a captain position.

So, back to the case at hand;

Tell us more about the specific situation:

What type of 135 operation is involved?

Are you getting the ATP on your own (the original post seems to suggest this)

Have you completed all the requirments for the company upgrade training?

If you have completed the upgrade training for PIC in commuter operations and you are seeking to use the exipred ATP result on your company captain's checkride and the examiner says you can't, he is wrong. period. This is precisely the situation the exeption is written for.

If you are wanting to use the ATP result to get your ATP on your own, this is less clear. If you've completed all the requirements for a captain upgrade, why are you looking to get an ATP on your own? Why not just get it on your upgrade ride?

I know, this doesn't answer the question, but it's something to think about.

Let's say that you are employed by a Day VFR single engine part 135 operator. Can you use an expired ATP exam to get your ATP?

No. You have not met the requirements to take advantage of the exemption. Remeber, it's not just *any* PIC training it is "...the operator's approved (i) Pilot in Command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought....."

And that means PIC training for a PIC position in multiengine sheduled commuter operations.

ie: PIC training to fly a C-207 in on demand operations doesn't doesn't require an ATP, so it's not "appropriate to the certificate sought"

 

[A Squared]

On face value, the ATP written officially expires after 24 calendar months, precluding you from taking the ATP practical exam.

true

However, if one is hired by say a 121 outfit within the 24 months and is still employed after this 2 year period, the ATP written results may be used for an upgrade and ATP certificate when the time comes with this particular airline.

Not true.

There is no requirement for you employment to commence within the 24 months. there used to be, but it was removed. If the FAA had intended that this requirement continue in force, they would no have removed it from the text of the regulation.

If you leave the airline after say 4 years as an FO and go to another 121 airline, the ATP written is NO LONGER valid for upgrade at the second airline.

Again, not true.

Again, there used to be a requirement that your employment was continuous, but it has been removed.


You need to read the actual text of the regulation. A great deal of confusion could be eliminated if folks actually did that. I've included it below. You will notice that there is no requirement for employment to commence within 24 months of taking hte written, no requirement for the employment to be continuous, no requirement for the employment to be with a single operator.

§ 61.39 (b) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a)(1) and (2) of this section, an applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate or an additional rating to an airline transport certificate may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that the applicant:

(1) Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved—

(i) Pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; and

(ii) Qualification training requirements appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; or

(2) Is employed as a flight crewmember in scheduled U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test, and has accomplished the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought.