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ATP troubles

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GravityHater

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Posts
1,168
I am having a hell of a job nailing the ATP (135) standards. I am 44, have flown since I was 18 - almost all light singles and now have 1900hrs. I did fine on Private, Commercial and OK on instrument (I have 75 sim or actual). and MEL, glider ratings.
I have been up with various instructors for 15 hours and am not progressing as well as I like on the instrument approaches. The rest (airwork, emerg proc, unusual attitudes) is all OK. It seems like I just haven't nailed the IAPs yet. I forget some small detail like turning the ADF radio volume up or can't keep the needles within 1 dot, or
get a bit confused about what will fix a heading deviation
while on an NDB, or how to interpret a VOR needle for a crossing radial. This is my weak area.
(to hear someone say this is normal would help!)
What I think is that:
-I will commit to checklist those things I cannot remember
-I will concentrate more on nailing the needles
-I will practice practice practice until it is second nature and more automatic.

Any ideas or suggestions would help. This is no 'fluff' certificate!
 
uh....

NDB approaches are the least accurate, lowest capablility level of IAP nav that is out there. You can do one NDB five times and you will physically pop out on final slightly different position each time.

thats why "GPS enhanced" NDB approaches are really good

however what troubles me about your post is that you are near ATP rating and claim to be confused on IAP's and VOR crossing radials.

after about 1000 hours of cross country time, working in the system, as a CFI, ferry pilot, etc, you shouldn't have this problem. Of course we still do it, thats why the crew concept exists, and yes, AA put a perfectly working 757 into a mountain in Colombia, etc etc.

I recognize that but my point remains at 1000 hours+ you really shouldn't be having the problems you discussed
 
satpak77 said:
after about 1000 hours of cross country time, working in the system, as a CFI, ferry pilot, etc, you shouldn't have this problem.

?? I dont remember saying these were my qualifications.


I recognize that but my point remains at 1000 hours+ you really shouldn't be having the problems you discussed
You are right perhaps, but I was hoping for a suggestion to fix the problem in addition to what I listed as my plan.... "you shouldn't have thise problem" is not really being helpful if that was your intent.
 
Provided you have your CFII, grab a few instrument students and teach them. You'll be forced to learn the material yourself (including the areas that you are not comfortable with), and know it well, before you can teach it to your students.

While it is not a "quick fix" that I think you're probably looking for, it is a remedy to your problem. Plus, it fixes the problem from the bottom up, and isn't just a "quick fix" which would only work for a short-term.

Better to know your stuff solid going into any exam than to just squeak by. The people that squeak by are the ones that get killed.
 
grab a few instrument students and teach them.
I, too, think this is an excellent suggestion. In fact, in the interest of helping my fellow aviators, I am willing to volunteer as your IR student. I'll be at GSO's GA ramp every afternoon at 2300Z waiting on you. You do have an airplane don't you? Cuz ... well ... I don't have any money. :(

Minh

In all seriousness ... I'm kinda' dense, so if he could teach ME, he'd be set. :D
 
pilotman2105 said:
Provided you have your CFII, grab a few instrument students and teach them. You'll be forced to learn the material yourself (including the areas that you are not comfortable with), and know it well, before you can teach it to your students.

While it is not a "quick fix" that I think you're probably looking for, it is a remedy to your problem. Plus, it fixes the problem from the bottom up, and isn't just a "quick fix" which would only work for a short-term.

Better to know your stuff solid going into any exam than to just squeak by. The people that squeak by are the ones that get killed.

Pilotman, what a terrific idea. I have thought of the same before, in non-av situations -not sure why I didn't think of it in this case. Not a CFI, so I would have to modify things a bit. I wouldn't want to do it in the air, and I wouldn't want to pollute a potential aviator's mind with my bent ideas of how instrument flight is supposed to go! So maybe I will pretend to have a student and talk them through every detail until I can explain it all well.

PS I didn't say or suggest I want a quick fix. I am not in any kind of a hurry. I am patient and have hired certified instrument instructors for almost every flight, this is not me blundering around with just a safety pilot. I don't need this for a job or to impress anyone. It is a goal unto itself. I am attracted by the precision, the enhancement of my skills. the improvements in my own safety. I have been encouraged to take the test but <b>I say</b> I am not ready and refuse until I can go in with confidence. 'Squeaking by' gives me the creeps!

Quick, you are inbound on a SW heading. Northwest, and abeam this course is a VOR, the crossing radial for a stepdown fix of which is 164deg. You set the obs to 164, will the needle start on the left or right if you are about to pass the fix?? Tick tock, tick tock!
 
Another suggestion I would recommend is go out and buy yourself a copy of Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004, and fly the heck out of it.

It's a very cheap alternative to renting an airplane, and you can set your airplane up in innumerable situations so you can practice. IAP's, VOR's, NDB's, you can do it all! I spent more then a few hours on it practicing during my IR rating and especially when I was having a heck of a time with DME Arcs and NDB Approaches.

Maybe it would help you on your VOR crossing radials and intercept headings, if you could "see" and learn what to "expect" in various situations. Pull out the ole Approach Plates in your area and go at it. Pull out an enroute chart and take off from an airport to intercept an airway if there's one nearby.

Something that can be your best friend in an airplane is a RMI. If you aren't familiar with one, learn to use it in Flight Sim. Once you tune in the station it will always point to the inbound and outbound course, and by watching what the current course is, you can tell when the needle should be coming alive, and how quickly your moving towards it. Flying with a RMI, you should never blow past a final approach course or miss a turn to intercept.

An alternate if you dont have a RMI is to use your second VOR receiver, and anytime your confused where your at with a full scale deflection, simply center up the #2 and see what radial you are on. From there you can determine how close or far away you are from it, and prepare for the intercept.

Just always remember, keep your head up and dont let yourself get too frustrated.
 
Vor needle

Just put the course in the window and look at the needle. If it's to the left, you haven't passed it yet. If it's to the right, you passed it already.

Also, as far as forgetting to do stuff. I'd make a mental checklist to help you remember. Like the 5 T's when you pass a fix.
 
Remedial instrument training

It sounds like you are spending too much time flying and not enough time preparing. An airplane makes a terrible classroom, especially for procedures training. You should first hone your understanding and procedures to standards and use the airplane to verify and enhance them.

You should find an instructor and a ground trainer, such as an AST-300 or Frasca, and go back to basics. Stay out of the airplane initially. Start with developing your cross-check to the degree that flying on gauges in second nature. Do a lot of work on Vertical Ss and Patterns A, B and C. As soon as you are flying to ATP standards on the ground trainer, go fly. Then, back to the ground trainer for each phase of radio navigation. Hone each, one step at a time, to standards, and fly. Et cetera.

The big advantage of the ground trainier (sim) is it can be stopped and your can take a breath while your instructor goes over points with you. In a sim, you can go over the same points repeatedly, which is about impossible in the airplane.

It's important to train consistently so that you retain what you learn. Consistent training makes for consistent progress which makes for better learning.

Finally, take all this from someone who knows. I did my entire instrument rating in the airplane. It took forever. My instructor owned his own airplane and did not know from ground trainers. At the time I earned my instrument rating I did not have a career in mind, so it might not have mattered that much, but I'm sure I would have learned more, better and faster had I been trained in a ground trainer first and then flown the airplane. I know that for sure after using ground trainers to train my instrument students.

Good luck.
 
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de727ups said:
Just put the course in the window and look at the needle. If it's to the left, you haven't passed it yet. If it's to the right, you passed it already.
Also, as far as forgetting to do stuff. I'd make a mental checklist to help you remember. Like the 5 T's when you pass a fix.
Now you have my curiosity piqued. How did you get that? Here is what I was looking at (see picture) I see it to the right when I am approaching the fix.

You are right about the checklists. Rather than mental however, mine are printed.

Drawing below of earlier described problem:

..........
Well I don't have attachment privileges so I can't post the picture (any ideas how I can let you see this?)
 
Sorry

I said it wrong. Try it this way...

Put the desired radial in the course window.

Then, when the VOR needle is on the same side of the plane as the VOR, you're not there yet. If the needle is on the opposite side of the plane, you passed it.

You don't need pictures. You only need to know which side of the aircraft the VOR in on and have the correct radial (not inbound course) in the window.
 
maybe....

this may be helpful, it sounds basic but keep it in mind when you are on your IAP's

always ask yourself and have in your mind

1) Where physically is the navigation aid I am using?

Some VOR's and NDBs are off-site, some MAP's are time-only, etc. Be cognizant of this.

2) Where physically am I in relation to the navigation aid? Do not think of "TO" or "FROM" tracking-wise, think of "where am I, on the map"

Is the navaid behind me? Abeam me? In front of me? In a holding pattern, a VOR will be in front and then behind you and in front again for many turns. Be aware of this. This is tied into #1.

3) Re: 1,2 above, now, where is that physical bearing or radial at? Where physically? I want to go "grab it". Where is it?

No one is going to make fun of you if you draw a picture on your kneeboard when ATC gives you that hold. If confused, ask! "Clarify, what direction are my turns?" "OK, just making sure, thanks". You know how many old grizzled airline captains still do this? So don't feel bad.

4) Slow down (mentally and physically). We are not in an air-race. Your post about "quick, whats the answer" maybe works in the FBO or flight school banter room but I have yet to here ATC ask me "quick, whats the answer" on the radio. Get your mind ready for the approach. Radio's set, nav stuff set, altimeters, etc. Do this early. Get the damm plane configured early. Props, checklists, flaps, whatever the POH mandates. Do this WAY OUT until you get more skilled. Do it EARLY. While on the approach, you need to be flying and navigating, not flying, navigating, props, flaps, sh1t whats the altimeter, hey stow that luggage, did we get rental car, mixture rich, sh1t its low, what is the missed, etc, etc. FLY AND NAV and nothing else

maybe that will help

good luck
 
GravityHater said:
I am having a hell of a job nailing the ATP (135) standards. I am 44, have flown since I was 18 - almost all light singles and now have 1900hrs. I did fine on Private, Commercial and OK on instrument (I have 75 sim or actual). and MEL, glider ratings.
I have been up with various instructors for 15 hours and am not progressing as well as I like on the instrument approaches. The rest (airwork, emerg proc, unusual attitudes) is all OK. It seems like I just haven't nailed the IAPs yet. I forget some small detail like turning the ADF radio volume up or can't keep the needles within 1 dot, or
get a bit confused about what will fix a heading deviation
while on an NDB, or how to interpret a VOR needle for a crossing radial. This is my weak area.
(to hear someone say this is normal would help!)
What I think is that:
-I will commit to checklist those things I cannot remember
-I will concentrate more on nailing the needles
-I will practice practice practice until it is second nature and more automatic.

Any ideas or suggestions would help. This is no 'fluff' certificate!
GravityHater....

I am an ATP, CFII, MEI... all that stuff. Sounds to me like you are a little weak on the basics. You might try practicing your instrument scan, making it second nature, so you can think as you scan automatically.

Another thing, get your instructor to "DO" the checkride the examiner is going to give you; That way, you won't have any surprises.

Take time before each flight to review the plates your going to use on the flight. Think about what navaids your going to use, on that approach. Imagine, on the ground, before the flight, how you might have to fly the approach if you come from the North, South, East, West, etc.

The biggest problems occur when pilots get behind the airplane.

Get everything you can get done out of the way, as soon as you can. Don't save items for the busiest time of flight, the approach!

For your Naviagation problem go to the following link: http://www.vrotate.com/VOR/vor.html

This is an excellent navigation simulator that will help you orient your mind relative to common instrument indications. You won't have to scan other instruments....

All you'll have to do is look at the Navigation display and play! It's fun.... This is also a VERY good simulator for getting the ADF problems straight in your mind.

That's my advice.... Go back to basics, good scan technique, know the approach before you leave the ground, stay ahead of the aircraft, practice your navigation skills.

I hope this helps.
Let me know by PM, if I can help. :)
 
Here is an update on my 'troubles'. I have flown another 5 hours, but not before I tweaked my checklist to include commonly-forgotten items. I also spent some time on the ground with Dogans book and studying the VOR quadrants etc (I discovered a trick on my own about the xing radials - later) and just walking through in my mind the step by step procedures with emphasis of where and when. I also found an on online tutorial for VORs and ADFs where you can set the wind, your location and speed and fly around the navaids, seeing what they do
http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/
and this has really helped me apparently because the next few flights were noticably better!
Now, if I can just get the localizer BC needle to stay centered when inside that 1/2 mile range!
I am going to keep practicing and studying but won't be able to do the ride for a while, I will try to come back to report on it. Thanks guys!





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Here is the trick I learned about Xing radials and "which side will the needle be on, or move to?" See what you think:

When flying clockwise around a VOR (and 'From' is showing), any selected radial that you cross will result in the needle moving from right to left across the instrument face. That's easy to remember, Clockwise = Right to Left. If you select a radial of a fix and aren't sure if you have passed it, when going CW around the VOR it will be on the Left if you've passed the fix. There may be other ways to remember it but this is easiest for me right now.
 
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If you have a GPS, as you intercept the localizer, go Direct to the airport. Then just match the DTK (Desired Track) with your track. Both headings show up on most GPS' one on top of the other. Instant wind correction.
 
Sadly, I have learned this just recently during my CFII training about the VOR and crossing radials. I should have known this already after my IFR rating.

Set the OBS to the radial you will need to cross. Check which side is the needle deflected. Check your current heading. Point out the heading on the rotateable scale on the VOR. If the heading is on the side where the needle is deflected to than you are getting closer to the radial, you will cross it. If it is on the other side than you are flying away from it, you have passed it.

One thing to keep in mind though is that you can fly a heading that will make you intercept/cross a radial either before or after the VOR. What this means is that you can intercept a 360 FROM before passing the VOR (you being still south of it) so you will end up intercepting/passing the 360 TO instead of 360 FROM. Therefore you can’t just pick anything on the side where the needle is for an intercept heading. So this is not the best tool to pick initial headings for intercept unless you keep this in mind. However it is perfect to find lead in radials when flying DME arcs, or visualizing your position relative to fixes on an approach or on airways. It is also great to verify an intercept heading to avoid reverse sensing.

Try it in your vrotate.com simulator, it works.

Some very simple but useful stuff about the ADF:

In straight flight when maintaining ground course

1. The head of the needle always falls.
2. The tail always raises.

Pretty basic and also obvious if you think about it but it is kind of important to say it out loud at least once. I have never thought of it this way before my CFII told me.

I have also learned a great and easy way to select the proper entry for a hold but I would have to draw something up for it. If you need it PM, I will draw it up.
 
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