ATP privileges?

[flyingsailor]

Is an ATP able to give part 91 instruction and make logbook endorsements.
Does anyone know the definition of "air transportation service" as used in part 61.167.
Thanks,

 

[Buzo]

No there are not.

 

[nosehair]

No. The holder of an ATP is not an instructor in the sense of a certified flight instructor. He cannot give any instruction or make any endorsements referenced in any of part 61 in pursuit of a certificate or rating or review or any of that.

The reference in 61.167(b) "may instruct other pilots in air transport service..." means instructing pilots who are already certificated as commercial pilots who are receiving company training as required in the company training program in company aircraft for which that ATP holder is designated as company instructor. He does not have to hold a CFI to do the company training.

 

[flyingsailor]

Nosehair,
Thanks for the info! Can I find that explanation on a official site that I can quote from? Thanks again for the response.

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

Air transportation means interstate, overseas, or foreign air transportation or the transportation of mail by aircraft.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2aa3a59cc9e53423a197d4fa1a94ec36&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:1.0.1.1.1.0.1.1&idno=14

The key paragraph...

(3) Only as provided in this section, unless the airline transport pilot also holds a flight instructor certificate, in which case the holder may exercise the instructor privileges of subpart H of part 61 for which he or she is rated; and

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2aa3a59cc9e53423a197d4fa1a94ec36&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.7.1.10&idno=14

It's a pretty cut and dry deal so there has been much in the way of interpretations on this particular reg... here is one... the section numbers have changed with the rewrites over the years but the concept is still applicable.

MAR. 5, 1976

Mr. W. A. Dennison

Dear Mr. Dennison:

This is in response to your request for interpretation of Sec. 61.169 of the Federal Aviation Regulations, and confirms our telephone conversation of more recent date. You specifically ask whether an airline transport pilot may instruct a commercial-instrument rated pilot, in an aircraft of the category, class, and type for which the ATP pilot is rated, for the purpose of attaining an airline transport pilot certificate.
Section 61.169 states, in pertinent part, that an airline transport pilot may instruct other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type for which he is rated. Part 1 of the Federal Aviation Regulations defines air transportation as interstate, overseas, or foreign air transportation, or the transportation of mail by aircraft. The last sentence of Sec. 61.169 provides that, "unless he has a flight instructor certificate, an airline transport pilot may instruct only as provided in this section".
Based on the foregoing, Sec. 61.169 authorizes an airline transport pilot to give flight instruction which may be logged by the recipient for the purpose of obtaining an airline transport pilot certificate, only if the recipient is engaged in air transportation service.
We regret the delay in this response and trust this satisfactorily answers your inquiry. If we can be of any further assistance, please let us know.

Sincerely,

CARL A. DANIELS
Chief, Airmen and Airports Branch
Regulations and Codification Division
Office of the Chief Counsel


Hope it helps... cc

 

[flyingsailor]

CC,

Thanks for the information. GG

 

[DitchDriver]

means instructing pilots .... in company aircraft for which that ATP holder is designated as company instructor. He does not have to hold a CFI to do the company training.

Are you saying that a commercial pilot can not be a company instructor airman without being a CFI first? I know of several of those.

The way I see it: ATP can instruct without company airman designation.

 

[avbug]

The way you see it really doesn't matter. If one intends to provide required flight instruction, one must be a flight instructor, and certificated as such. Merely holding an ATP certificate does not entitle one to instruct.

No one said anything about being a company instructor on a commercial certificate. "Company instructor" means nothing, and grants no privilege beyond providing non-required instruction within the company. The company could designate the same person to be a company mascot, company cheerleader, or company goat herder, with the same level of significance, and authority. In order to provide any required instruction, however, the person providing the instruction must hold either a flight instructor certificate, or an ATP certificate (and confine his or her work to instruction within the company, specific to air transport service).

If one intends to provide required instruction within a company or firm, one must be a designated company instructor or check airman, and hold an ATP certificate, or flight instructor certificate. One may provide flight instruction specific to air transport service to other pilots within one's own company, where both are employed in air transport service, using an ATP certificate. Outside of that scope, the ATP may provide no instruction without a flight instructor certificate.

MAY 15, 1979

AWE-7
Request for Interpretation FAR 61.169, WE-ACDO-33 ltr. dtd. 10/12/78
Associate Regional Counsel
Chief, Flight Standards Division, AWE-200

This is in response to your letter of October 26, 1978, requesting our interpretation of Section 61.169 of the Federal Aviation Regulations.
Our answers to each of the questions posed on your letter are as follows:

Question No. 1
May an ATP rated airman of a certificated FAR 121 Air Carrier give flight instruction under contract to individuals who are enrolled in an FAR Part 141 School?

Answer No. 1
No. While Section 61.169 does authorize the holder of a ATP to give instruction without holding a flight instructor certificate, this authorization is clearly limited in scope. One of these limitations is directed to the class of individuals receiving the instruction. Specifically, the section provides that the authorization only extends to instruction given to other pilots in Air Transportation Service. Individuals who are enrolled in an FAR Part 141 School would not fall within that class.

Question No. 2
Would the answer to Question No. 1 be different, if the information in Example No. 1 were Sierra Academy, an FAR Part 141/121 School?

Answer No. 2
No. The same reasoning discussed above would in our opinion also apply to the situation posed in this question.

Question No. 3
If the answer to question No. 1 or No. 2 is yes, must the ATP rated airman meet the requirements of FAR Sections 1.1.411 and 1.1.413?

Answer No. 3
Since our answers to the first two questions were in the negative, no answer to this question is required.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us.
DEWITTE T. LAWSON, JR.
Regional Counsel
By:_______________________________
FREDERICK C. WOODRUFF
Associate Regional Counsel

 

[Lead Sled]

The way I see it: ATP can instruct without company airman designation.

DitchDriver...
After you've given all that dual without a valid CFI certificate please let us know how your student does on his oral. It won't even get to a checkride.

There is (as far as I know) only one instance where a non-CFI can give valid dual instruction in the civilian world - Balloons. A commercial balloon pilot can give flight instruction.

'Sled

 

[midlifeflyer]

The way I see it: ATP can instruct without company airman designation.

I'm convinced that if someone posted 1+1=2, someone else would come along asnd say, "That's not the way I see it."