ATP Multi trng vs Bob Crystal trng

[rltoma]

I have a question regarding ATP's multi engine program and I am hoping to get some help from anyone who has any insight on the subject. I am scheduled to take ATP's 10 hr multi program in August. I have read thier supplement along with the complete multi engine pilot by Bob Gardner. Today, I decided to call Bob Crystal at Simulator & Instrument Training Center in Van Nuys (Bob writes for Plane and Pilot magazine so maybe some of you are familiar with him) because I heard he rents an Aztec and I was curious how much it costs as well as check out requirements. Bob asked me my total hours along with some other questions and said he would not rent me the aircraft unless I did the training with him or I had the required multi time ( no surprise there). I talked with him about my plans to attend ATP, and that after that I was hoping to gain experience with some other MEI pilots that I know locally. Bob claims that ATP's program is marginal at best and that if I really want to learn to fly multi-engine like a true pro, I should consider another course of training than ATP because according to Bob, ATP's price is a come-on and that most people do not finish for the price claimed by ATP. I know that Bob is a considered an authority, but at 200 an hour(wet) for the aircraft along with 75 an hour to train with Bob, I'm not sure what I should do. Bob told me that if I train with him I could fly on the occasional trips(6-7hrs) that are made in the Aztec (one way) to texas( unpaid...Is this considered PFT?, I don't think it is a revenue trip but I am not sure). I also would have to pay for my own airfare back. I then asked him how many students participate in this program and he indicated that not many and that I would get plenty of chances to fly this trip. Because of the vast experience of some of the pilots on this forum I would like to know what some of you think. Thanks in advance for the advice.

 

[Buda6868]

I start ATP on Monday and have heard mostly good things about the program. One thing I do know for sure is that the price they quote is the price you pay. I personally know 7 pilots who trained there and they have nothing but good things to say about it, all went through the career program.

One of the students I fly with just took the 10 hr. multi last week in Dallas and loved it. Took 4 days and the planes were in good shape and brand new.

Do not know about the quality of training, but will find out soon. From what I have gathered, they have been in business since 1983 and mostly trained military into transition to civilian aircraft. And visiting the office, I saw person after person coming in all day, some for their ATP, multi, career, or other written, instruction or checkride.

I am sure there are other opinons, this is just my .02 cents.

 

[Buckeye]

I did my MEL rating at ATP in Atlanta, GA. I thought that it was very professional and I was surprised at how much I learned. I learned to fly at a Military flying club, which was very professional and educational. I was suprised by the level of training at ATP, and feel they did a better job than the flying club would have. I have been fortunate to get the flying jobs I have had as a low time pilot, maybe some of that can be attributed to them. Bob Crystal sounds like some one whom has some issues with ATP and he only cares about is getting your money. There must be some reason people aren't jumping all over this?, and why is it only a one way trip? Robert James Crystal sounds like a pr!ck.

Fly Safe and best of luck to you!

 

[vclean]

I did the 5 hr ATP at 1800allatps some years back. Never flew a Seminole before (it's an Arrow with 2 fans). Study material and training were satisfactory. Pace can be fast, but if you prepare properly and focus, you should do fine. ATP has been doing this for a long time and will get you through the program.

If you are very low or no multi time, see about 1-2 flights with someone to introduce multi-engine concepts. The Seminole is an easy twin to fly, counter-rotating props (no critical engine). Stalls are a non-event. Lands like an Arrow.

Sounds like Mr. Aztec believes his is the only approved way to learn multi-engine flying. Stay away.

Good Luck,

 

[kabz]

Sounds kinda dubious to me. I did my flight training at a small fbo, then did the multi-training at ATP with about 190TT. It was pretty intense, and I prepared fairly well and did not have a problem.

A lot was crammed into the 8 hours dual (in fact 7.9) and I felt pretty well prepped and confident for the checkride. One really nice thing was that the 2001 PA44 I flew, EVERYTHING WORKED !!! Goddammit !!! EVERYTHING.

This was a 'toe in the water' for doing my CFI ratings with ATP, which I am happy to do now.

 

[tarp]

Faster doesn't always mean "of less quality".

I used ATP for the 5-hr ATP prep - it was great! They are highly structured, fly nice almost identical Seminoles that have all the i's dotted and t's crossed.

I went there even though I had almost 300 hours of Seminole and Seneca time. Why? I had three FBO's in the area - one had a Seminole that they were renting for $145/hr (a couple years ago). I asked to see the Maintenance records. Ran away from that plane. Went to the next FBO - this time a Seneca I for $165/hr - asked for the books and looked at the plane - the airplane smelled like (well to be quite frank) urine. Ripped seats, nasty old radios that I could hardly see the led's on - oh yes, a very impressive plane to take an ATP ride in. Last plane was a leasedback Aztec - I love Aztecs and this was a beauty - spotless and then they dropped the hammer - it was a leaseback and the $175/hr rate was DRY!

Enough of this - it was 45 miles more to the nearest ATP school. Structured curriculum, beautiful Seminoles, great record keeping. I signed up.

The big thing - I went in prepared - I wanted the ATP as hassle free as I could make it - studied hard, took the written well before flying, knew the rules in their flight supplement backwards and forwards. Went up with the instructor and it was stress free. Did something like 3.5 hours (2 flights) and was sharp - took the ride and done (5.1 hours on the hobbs as I shut down). The DE was happy and stated he loved ATP planes because they were so well maintained. Accumulators on the props, the works!

ATP is what ATP says it is - they've got planes and instructors out the wazoo. Scheduling is a piece of cake. BUT....you have to do your homework and be prepared everyday - they aren't there to pour knowledge into your head - you've got to meet them halfway.

 

[flywest]

9.5 hrs for me . .

I finished up my multi training at ATPs this past March with 9.5 hrs total, including the checkride. The instructor was ok, but the equipment and facilities were top notch. I went in with only a few hours of riding along in another multi (never really touching the controls).

If you go the ATP route, make sure you study the supplement info before you head into the training, or else you are in for a long 4 days of training. Well worth the $1595 I paid at the time!

Regards,
FlyWest

 

[JJG]

What Bob Crystal told you is way off base. I went to ALL ATP's in Atlanta and it was anything but "marginal" I did the ten hour program and felt very well prepared. They do an eval flight with you on the first day and tell you if you should do the 3 hour or the ten hour program. They told me I could do the three hour program but I could always use the extra multi-time so I opted for the ten hour program anyway. No hidden costs, good training materials, nice airplanes. I think it was $1,499 and that is exactly what I paid.

 

[Maria]

Just a tip, the reason people use the private message feature is they did not want their message posted on the open forum.

Naming names and tail numbers is a really good way to find yourself in a slander lawsuit, even if the information is true.

If you do want to post their post, ask permission, then delete the names, all of them... use astericks or something.

I did ATPs in Sacramento for my multi and knew the instructor that crashed. Sh*t happens.

 

[rltoma]

So another words you think its ok to express slanderous opinions in private but not an open forum? If you want to talk crap but only behind someones back thats your problem. I did not post this persons name or tail number and I did not ask for them to send anything private to me, fair warning.. if you send a private message that you are afraid will become public, then ask that it is not repeated, or better yet, keep your opinion to yourself. Additionally, I did not say anything negative about the person that PM'ed me, they however had plenty of "slanderous" statements to say about the subject at hand, so, who exactly would you say would be accused of slander? Get real.
I will continue to post any information, opinion or anything else anyone has to say unless of course they specifically ask me not too. I was always taught too stand up for what you believe in, don't lie, and don't talk the talk if you can't walk the walk. So if you can only make negative accusations behind someones back, don't bother,your comments are worthless since you lack the conviction to post them for everyone to read.