ATP Loging of PIC Flight time

[Kiwi]

Sorry guys, I know that this has probably been done to death but here goes.

I have a shiny new US ATP. I used to operate overseas with a foreign ATP so I don't really know the US regs that well.

I have a F900ex [DA-50] command type rating on the US ATP [thru flightsafety in NJ] and operate an "N" registered F900ex in and out of the US as a Co-pilot in the right hand seat - alternating pilot flying and pilot non flying duties.

My captain says that I am able to log PIC time for all my flights. Is this correct? and does he log PIC time also?

Is there somewhere I can look this up and confirm this?

cheers Kiwi.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sorry guys, I know that this has probably been done to death but here goes.

I have a shiny new US ATP. I used to operate overseas with a foreign ATP so I don't really know the US regs that well.

I have a F900ex [DA-50] command type rating on the US ATP [thru flightsafety in NJ] and operate an "N" registered F900ex in and out of the US as a Co-pilot in the right hand seat - alternating pilot flying and pilot non flying duties.

My captain says that I am able to log PIC time for all my flights. Is this correct? and does he log PIC time also?

Is there somewhere I can look this up and confirm this?

Actually, we don't discuss ATP logging that much. But, like =all= logging rules, the known universe of logging for ATPs is also in 61.51.

If you look at the rule, strangely, "ATP" is not listed in the base rule about being able to log "sole manipulator" time, but the answers to a couple of Part 61 FAQ and FAA legal opinions indicate that the base rules applies to ATPs as well. So, like a private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC for the time when you are flying the airplane (sole manipulator of the controls), so long as you have the proper category, class ratings and any applicable =type= ratings.

Independently, this is one of those few times that a logging rule actually refers to who is acting PIC. 61.51(e)(2) tells us

==============================
An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
==============================
So, 61.51 give you a few ways to log PIC. You can log PIC under the same conditions as anyone else. And, you may log PIC when you are acting as PIC on a flight that requires an ATP (even while you are in the bathroom).

 

[Kiwi]

Thanks very much.


So correct me if I'm wrong - I only log PIC when I am operating Pilot flying duties .... ie actually controlling the plane.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks very much.


So correct me if I'm wrong - I only log PIC when I am operating Pilot flying duties .... ie actually controlling the plane.

I'm not sure what that means. If you are not in command of the flight, you only log PIC for the time that you are the sole human manipulator of the airplane's controls.

 

[typhoonpilot]

I disagree with the previous posts. You may quibble about the regs all you want but if your goal in life is to be honest then you only log PIC time when you are the PIC. It doesn't matter that you have the type and are manipulating the controls, the fact of the matter is that you are not the captain and you are not responsible for the airplane. To further this, if your career goal is an airline then you need to take a look at what they ask for on their applications and you will find that what you are doing is nowhere near PIC.

That said, if you alternate legs in the left seat and are the responsible party for the aircraft, i.e it's your name on the flight plan, then you can make a better argument that the time can be logged as PIC.


Typhoonpilot

 

[Kiwi]

Thanks


It didn't make much sense to me because on my NZ ATPL I can only log PIC when I am the PIC. EG only one pilot is able to log their time as PIC. The other pilot, even if they are actually flying the aircraft only is able to log co pilot time - if designated as a co pilot.

I am only asking because I have been told by quite a number of people that I should be logging my time as PIC when I am actually flying [physicaly manupulating] the aircraft. This would mean that two people are logging PIC time.

I just want to do what is right.

 

[AV80R]

PIC? SIC? or...?

I concur with typhoonpilot.



Apologize my ignorance but I am not sure what a DA-50 is, I know I should. But it sounds like a Diamond jet or something similar? It really doesn’t’ matter I guess, my point is that the FAA rules and airline rules are VERY different on the PIC time. What might count as PIC in the regs might not be approved by the airlines.



In general, if you are the one signing the dispatch release you are the PIC. If in doubt, DO NOT LOG PIC, airlines would much rather see you being on the conservative side than the other way around.



Does the DA-50 require two pilots (per the FAA) or are there two pilots in the cockpit because the captain wants some company, help with radios, etc.?



If two pilots are required I believe you should log it as SIC. If only one pilot is required, well then you can log it as… Actually not sure there, have heard many different versions on that. PIC on deadhead legs only, SIC, observer time, radio navigator time, etc.



Typhoonpilot, any thoughts?



Also, not sure about the term “command” type rating. Is that just a regular type rating, like a B-737, DC-9, etc. or is there a different rating out there for conversion purposes? I have never heard the term “command type rating.”

 

[midlifeflyer]

I disagree with the previous posts. You may quibble about the regs all you want but if your goal in life is to be honest then you only log PIC time when you are the PIC.

I will disagree with this statement. If your goal in life is to be honest then you only log PIC time when the rules say you may log PIC.

If you are a private or commercial pilot or an ATP and are acting as PIC, but not flying, in an operation that does not require an ATP or more than one pilot, if you log that time in the standard PIC column of your logbook, you are making a fraudulent logbook entry. You call that honest?

Kiwi,

It didn't make much sense to me because on my NZ ATPL I can only log PIC when I am the PIC

I understand the confusion. The US FAA regulations are a bit strange compared with most other countries by completely separating the concepts of acting as the pilot in command of a flight and writing numbers in the PIC column of a logbook. We end up in situations in which the real PIC is not permitted to count the time, others where the one who is not PIC, in fact, not even qualified to be PIC, =can= write the time, and still others where more than one person can write the numbers even though, obviously, only one pilot can truly be in charge.

Of course, logginf questions need to be answered in two ways: what do the rules allow and what does a potential employer want to see. The answers can be very different and tend to require multiple forms of logging.

 

[Beetle007]

Log anything you are comfortable explaining at an interview and/or court of law. If you are the sole manipulator of the controls (pilot flying), you may legally log the time as PIC. Most airlines will specify what time they want you to include on your applications and resume. I would log it as liberally as possible in your logbook, but use good judgement when giving your times on applications and resumes.

 

[Kiwi]

AV8OR

A DA-50 is the type designator for the Falcon 50, Falcon 50EX, Falcon 900, Falcon 900B, Falcon 900C Falcon 900EX [don't ask me why]. So you can see another point of confusion as I only trained in the Falcon 900EX sim and recieved a type rating for all the above. Yes this A/C requires two pilots.

What I mean by "command type rating" is I trained in the left hand seat and did the checkride in the left hand seat, whereas others did their checkride from the right hand seat [I don't think they actually recieved a type rating].

As far as airlines are concerned I don't really want to go down that road, as I consider my present job much better than what I could get here in New Zealand with our [very small] airline industry.

So back to my original question - i'll answer it as I now understand it.

When I am Pilot flying [manupulating the Aircraft] I will log PIC time, and when I am Pilot non flying [using the radio - keeping the captain company] I will log SIC time.

Once again I only want to do what the regs state that I can do - I don't care about trying to impress someone at an interview with all my flight time [ I think I've enough already].

Kiwi