ATP/135/"Other"

[minitour]

Hey you guys! (Goonies - Love that movie)

I've been reading the regs a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**load the past few weeks and I am very confused (see the ATP written thread) about Cross Country time.

Here's how I see it:
For certificates (Pvt/IR/Comm) you need to log cross country flight that is at least a straight line distance of 50nm from the original point of departure with a landing. Simple enough.

For the ATP it is the same, except no landing required.

For 135 minimums, cross country time is just cross country time. Landing at an airport other than the departure point.

So how do you guys log all of this time? Little color coded dots in your logbook? extra columns?

I can see how an electronic logbook could be beneficial here where you could just add a column for "ATP XC" or "135 Night XC" or stuff like that, but I don't have the money right now for an electronic book, nor do I wish to stop keeping the regular book.

If I do get an electronic logbook, do I need to add additional columns in the regular book too? Or will a printout of "ATP Cross Country" time be sufficient when the time comes for the practical? (ie. I have my logbook and then I have a computer printout of all of my "ATP Cross Country" flights - same for 135 xc time, etc)

I don't really get off on the idea of having an electronic logbook as my ONLY book going into an interview, and I know (from before) there are many different views on that...so what is your opinion on mixing the two (scenario above)?

Thanks for the help and advice

-mini

*edit*
PS
Does Jepp make a VFR Sectional type chart?

 

[avbug]

A good practice and policy is to not log anything as cross country that's not at least 50 nm in length. In the least, you won't have the appearance of trying to wrangle your time

I never differentiated my cross country, and haven't bothered to log anything as cross country for a long time...what would be the point?

For early ratings, I've seen examiners pull out a chart and measure the distances between points in an applicant's logbook...and I've seen applicants rejected before their practical test even started, simply because the distances fell short by a very small margin.

In the grand scope of things, is anybody ever going to go back and look in your logbook to see if all your time meets the cross country requirements? Nope. In former times, when getting the government endorsement for the ATP meant something, the logbook got audited. Today, not even that. I've had some very close reviews of my logs by employers and the government, but I seriously doubt anybody cares all that much about the cross country...it doesn't mean that much anyway. (five minutes of skill, two hours of sitting, five minutes of skill again...).

If you must differentiate between cross country that qualifies for one item but not another, then by all means, do so. But if you do, you'll be making it all a whole lot more complicated than it need be.

 

[PropsForward]

Yup, Just log the 50nm flights as cross country. If you get close to the rest of the 135 mins and you're a little short in the XCtry column, then go back and add up the airport to airport stuff.

 

[minitour]

Okay...understood wrt the 135 stuff...but how do you log 50nm flights where you don't land?

I've heard instructors here talking about taking their students 50nm away w/o landing doing maneuvers/airwork along the way and logging it as ATP xc time...but how do you log it?

 

[wheelsup]

I created a seperate column (in a blank spot) in my logbook titled "135 X-cty time". That way I could log all the time needed to show my 500 hrs of Xcty as well as keep the 50 nm xcty landings in the actual xcty logbook column (to show ATP mins, I'm never really gonna fly 50+ miles and not land).

As far as taking students 50 nm away to do manuvers, I'll keep quiet about my ethical thoughts on that.

Why log it? Because I hated adding my time up everytime I applied for a 135 job. It was just easier having it in front of me. And I don't have to use that column for just that time, I've since now stopped logging the point to point time because my xcty time is approaching the 500 hour range - and if thats above 500 then my point to point stuff certainly is. Another reason is insurance (that I got from the AOPA website). I guess having more xcty time makes you more insurable (sp?).

~wheelsup

 

[avbug]

I've heard instructors here talking about taking their students 50nm away w/o landing doing maneuvers/airwork along the way and logging it as ATP xc time...but how do you log it?

Don't.

If you restrict logging cross country only to those flights over 50 nmwith a landing at the other end, you never have a problem.

 

[minitour]

Don't.

If you restrict logging cross country only to those flights over 50 nmwith a landing at the other end, you never have a problem.

Okay, but legally you're cutting your legs from under you. As it is, it's going to take me X years to get enough time to take the ATP ride, shouldn't I be trying to expedite this process along? The regs allow for it and it's not compromising safety of the flight....I don't see the big deal.


Wheelsup:
I can understand the thoughts there about maneuvering 50nm away. However, the other side of the coin is the student can also log that as cross country time for the ATP.

-mini

 

[Ralgha]

Okay, but legally you're cutting your legs from under you. As it is, it's going to take me X years to get enough time to take the ATP ride, shouldn't I be trying to expedite this process along? The regs allow for it and it's not compromising safety of the flight....I don't see the big deal.

You're not really cutting your legs from under you. I logged only that time that I had a landing >50NM away, and I lost, MAYBE 2-3 hours that could have been logged had I logged without the landing. 3 hours out of 500, big friggen deal. If you happen to get 50 miles away and want to log it, just land somewhere, you want time anyway right? You'll get more by landing than not.

Wheelsup:
I can understand the thoughts there about maneuvering 50nm away. However, the other side of the coin is the student can also log that as cross country time for the ATP.

-mini

Yeah, they could log it toward ATP, but they could also get that X/C time WITHOUT paying you for sitting there. Do your maneuvers close to the airport. If you make them go 50 miles just to do maneuvers, unless you're doing maneuvers all the way there and back, then you're cheating them.

If you're lucky, you'll get some advanced students that don't mind making flights a cross country. I had a few, I was straight up about it. "I need more X/C time, do you mind making this flight to an airport 50NM away?"

 

[JetBlast2000]

Okay, but legally you're cutting your legs from under you. As it is, it's going to take me X years to get enough time to take the ATP ride, shouldn't I be trying to expedite this process along? The regs allow for it and it's not compromising safety of the flight....I don't see the big deal.

Your not loosing that much time if you don’t log the overfly flights of 50nm. Realistically the only people it really helps are CFI’s. In other words, your out on a flight with a student in a twin and you actually make a point to go 50nm. If this is the case, just put a note in the remarks section (50nm). But most of the time if you’re on a training flight and go more than 50nm from home in a single engine a/c without a touch and go at an a/p, you’re probably wasting your students’ money. If you’re doing aerial photo work or something similar you should make a notation. Again, most of these flights are few and far between.



In terms of an electronic logbook, I highly recommend them. They are great for totally your 135 x-c times. You can just search from a/p to a/p. They are also great when you start apply for flying jobs. Everyone wants time totaled in a slightly different manner. Last 30 days, 6 months, year, PIC in the last year, MEL PIC in the last 30 days. You get the idea. You will save lots of time in the long run. If you’re any good with computers, you can make your own. I threw one together in File Maker Pro. I modify it as I go along. If you start now at your present TT, you can input you’re past flight in a weekend. If you wait too much longer… well, good luck.



JB2k