ATL ATC issues; ATL Pilot?

[~~~^~~~]

ATL Pilot - sorry about getting off topic.

First, let me say how pleased I am to see you on this board with an ATC perspective. This kind of communication, whether formal, or informal, is VERY useful.

Second, the best information we ever got from recurrent training was the visit from the ATC folks. I know staffing is tight, but I hope they bring back that program.

Sharing information helps us get the big picture of what ATC needs in the way of flight profiles and aircraft performance. This is a more relevant issue with fuel costs going through the roof.

Some airlines are teaching flight profiles which are expected to cause flow problems (250KIAS idle descents, min drag) in an effort to save fuel. Then there are the "increase to 320, slow to 210, turn 90 degrees off course, expedite down," instructions which wreck any attempts at fuel efficiency.

While the most important consideration is not hitting another aircraft, I have heard many of the early descents for ATL are simply the result of controllers wanting to get the aircraft below and out of their airspace. Is there any truth to this?

You are a pilot, so I'm sure you have a handle on the way jets perform, but is there any training for the ATC folks that gives them the basics like:

> Most jets burn much more fuel at low altitude
> All jets go much slower at low altitude
> Airlines plan for something around 3 degree descent paths; going below this profile not only burns more and pollutes more, but also results in minimum fuel situations (which most often go undeclared and unreported).

This comes up more frequently than anyone wants to admit and more than anyone wants to talk about. But aside from the valid safety concerns, why can't ATC allow more reasonable descent profiles into NYC, and ATL?

Also, is there any good communication channels so that an airline that decides to change profiles does not suddenly surprise a controller by flying some unexpected profile? I'll admit, I was the guy trying to fly idle 4 degree descents when it seemed I could get away with it (out West mostly). The fuel & time savings were pretty impressive.

Here's for anything that results in giving less money to our enemies in the Middle East and makes our home town a cleaner place to live.

 

[Speedtape]

Fins,

As always, you hit the nail on the head. Safety should always be inclusive and not exclusive.

To add more concerns to the pot, both ATC and the ATL operating airlines have new people with little or no experience entering the respective professions. Now, more than ever, there needs to be less finger pointing and more information sharing--better DIRECT communication. To be most effective, it should occur with the front line workers from both ATC and pilots, and not managment.

The recent incident only brings this to light. SAFETY is OUR BUSINESS--both ATC and Pilots. Working together, We should explore every opportunity to improve it--ways that have not been explored. We all have a vested interest in the outcome! Our jobs, the flying public, and our familes depend on it!

 

[Beergut]

Fins, not to stray away from your topic but I have a question for you. I 've been reading your posts for as long as I have been a member of this board and I always find them very well written and insightful. There used to be a pilot at ASA that I enjoyed getting his thoughts about the industry whenever I saw him around the crew lounge. He has left ASA but I'm not sure where he went to fly. (I think DAL) Your posts and his thoughts are very close. For a long time I have thought that you and he are the same. Don't feel obligated to satisfy my curisoty because I enjoy the anonomity myself. (That way I can say stupid stuff and no one knows who I am. ) Here's my question...could your initials be used as an acronym for a 6 point play in football?

 

[Max Q]

*Munches popcorn*

-Brett

 

[~~~^~~~]

Don't think so; but like you and others on this board, I've always thought the airline business was extreemly interesting and had the curse of loving aircraft my whole life. There are quite a few who can't stand my ideas, but I like to throw things out there and learn what other pilots think. There is always a chance to learn....

 

[atl pilot]

The recent incident only brings this to light. SAFETY is OUR BUSINESS--both ATC and Pilots. Working together, We should explore every opportunity to improve it--ways that have not been explored. We all have a vested interest in the outcome! Our jobs, the flying public, and our familes depend on it!

Very well said.

In answer to both your comments. Yes, we are stretched a bit thin right now. I have heard our leadership say on several occassions that they wish we had more resources so that we could get out and do briefings and meet our pilots, but that is just not possible currently.

I will say that the Flow Control guys from Approach (A80) and Atlanta Center (ZTL) are doing some public venues, with some really well put togther PowerPoint presentation (great picutres) in the ATL area. This program has really been geared towrd our general aviation users, but has some really excellent info for everyone. If you have a chance, please go participate in one of the following Operation Raincheck Programs:
AT CTJ on Jan 24th, 7 PM:
http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event_details.aspx?eid=17509
OR, at LZU on Feb 7, 7 PM:
http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event_details.aspx?eid=17524

As for the other questions about descent profile, I know this is being worked on through the Union safety committees. Another really great program is NATCA's Communicating for Safety event. Last year it was in ATL at the Renaissance Hotel, and I only know of about half dozen pilots who participated. It was right here in our own back yard. This year its in ORD. The dates are March 31 - April 2. Really great event. Provides oppotunity for great and very direct sharing of info. Lots of social time as well. One of the speakers last year was Capt Al Haynes - what an inetresting guy. Anyways, this is a prime venue for us to share our concerns in an open forum. Please take a look, and if you can, come participate!

http://cfs.natca.net/

 

[atl pilot]

I mentioned Communicating for Safety b/c the descent prfile issue came up in one of the forums last year, and there was some interesting exchanges offered. I guess I should have mentioned that in the first post - ops!

 

[joe_pilot]

AT CTJ on Jan 24th, 7 PM:
http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event_details.aspx?eid=17509
OR, at LZU on Feb 7, 7 PM:
http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event_details.aspx?eid=17524

Thanks for the info ATL. These links appear to be broken. Do you have alternate ones?

Thanks!

-JP

 

[atl pilot]

Go to www.faasafety.gov
Than select the link (on the left about half way down) that says, SPANS Events and Seminars.
Then search Georgia. This will take you to all events that are currently posted and you can look at each....and RSVP if you plan on attending!

 

[atl pilot]

You are a pilot, so I'm sure you have a handle on the way jets perform, but is there any training for the ATC folks that gives them the basics like:

> Most jets burn much more fuel at low altitude
> All jets go much slower at low altitude
> Airlines plan for something around 3 degree descent paths; going below this profile not only burns more and pollutes more, but also results in minimum fuel situations (which most often go undeclared and unreported).

No. Controllers do not get specifically trained on this and most are not pilots.

This is where our old "FAM" (jumpseat) program (pre 9-11 before the FAA canned it) paid off. This was your (the pilots) opportunity to fill in the blanks in terms of the whys and hows for the controllers who flew with you. Losing this tremendious training tool was a huge loss. I never rode in a jumpseat where I did not learn something of value. Unfortunately for the new guys, this is not an option anymore.

So, I will say it again. Come to Communicating for Safety and share your knowldge and concerns. In the past, there have been 300+ controllers from all over the US at this annual event. Great time to come meet us, from every facility all in one place, and to share your concerns and views. The more pilots that show up, the better an education and exchange of ideas it is for everyone!!!

And just a side note: I know between the hotel and the $60 registration fee, its a little costly, but sponsors provide all the food throughout the conference (believe me, we eat well), and its a great social event....you may even make some new friends, recognize some of the voices, and have a really fun little 3-day vacation!!