ATC vs. DAL PILOT PAY $$$$$

[acarpe3448]

I have read so many posts lately about the Delta Pilots Pay Scales, as well as the debate about DCI contributing to concessions that I am sick. I have been wondering what exactly DCI is really thinking when they are in favor of big cuts for Delta Pilots. Do they really think that it is necessary for huge concessions, or is it just an oportunity for them to see Delta pilots hurt due to the MEC disagreement. For a change I thaught I would talk about the pay scales for ATC Controllers, and see if anyone thinks this group is a bunch of overpaid, underworked employees. The similarities are very similar.

There is an article in this months Aviation International News titled "DOT watchdog critices high pay for air traffic controllers" from that article,

DOT Inspector General Kenneth Mead reported that last year more than 1,000 FAA Controllers (approx 6.7%) earned more than $150,000, with the 10 highest earning between $192,000 and $214,000. This was a major increase over 2000, when only 65 controllers exceeded $150,000. The National Air Traffic Controllers Association was quick to point out that a large portion of the top earners pay was due to overtime forced on them. But Mead also stated that, based on FAA data, the average base pay this year for a fully certified controller is $106,580, to which can be added overtime and a variety of special bonuses. Generally qualifications for this job or not even near what is required to be hired as a pilot for a major airline. Qualifications include: reasonable health, spatial cognitive skills, self-confidence, and the ability to make decesions quickly.

So what do you think? Obviously I have incredable confidence in our ATC controllers and would not trade them for any other countries. However, there really does not seem to be any substantial experience requirements needed prior to getting hired. So do we assume that these men and women are a bunch of overpaid, underworked people, or do we assume that they are well trained professionals who have high responsibility jobs that dictate higher wages that are fairly negotiated in employee contracts. Any thaughts.

 

[350DRIVER]

or do we assume that they are well trained professionals who have high responsibility jobs

I don't think we "assume" anything atleast the majority of the industry doesn't- they do have an awful lot of responsibility and are pretty well trained. "6.7%" approx. 1,000 controllers are a pretty low number with regards to "top pay"..

Keep in mind that the trend is that "gov't" jobs have always paid pretty well and the benefits has also been very good.

c h e e r s

3 5 0

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Many 'thaughts'.
As a controller for 18 years I can tell you that the small percentage of ANY controller making over the numbers you posted is rare. Pilots average, say, 70 hard hours a month. "Month". As a FPL controller, normally a work week is 40hrs a week. Up to 10 more hrs for overtime. There is a limit on it. I can and will say from experience, most every controller I worked with were the utmost professional in ability and conduct. Just like the airlines where there are always pilots who slip through the cracks and manage to get hired even though they can barely figure out how to start an engine. There are some controllers who are weak at best, have to rely on the person sitting next to them to make it through the shift, and worry when they have more than one airplane. Rare cases. I can also tell you many times we had pilots from mainlines, regionals, cargo and more who came to the tracon and tower to visit and see what the 'other side' is like. Almost ALL to a person indicated flying a plane was by far easier. Making split second decisons, knowing what and when to say things without thinking about it.
Difficult?? More than you could ever know. "General qualifications are not even near what it takes to be a pilot for a major airline" That tells me that you might think us in the regionals might qualify to be controller but not a "major airline pilot"? I know plenty of controllers who could flyl circles around you and me together. Are they worth the 'pay'? Every cent. Take the weather around here last week. You and I had to find a 'hole' to stay out of the weather. Just our planes and the folks in back. When you have everyone wanting to do something different and a controller has a certain airspace to handle all his traffic, BELIEVE me, the pay is barely enough. Did you happen to ask or find out how long it took for those of us to be "FULLY CERTIFIED", experienced enough to work ATL, ORD, JFK, SLC, LAX etc? Alot longer than you think. 5, 10, 15 years? Yes, if you want the best, most experienced folks.
I can make this post because I DO have that experience and I also know this side too.
If any pilot assumes the controllers are overpaid, underworked 'people', I challenge them to go sit at an arrival, or final sector when the weather or even just a heavy traffic bank hits, either arrivals or departures. Go up to the tower and see if you can keep either local or ground control in one piece.
I made $102,650 as an FPL controller in SLC before getting back into flying and it took 18 years to get there.
How long did it take you to get to YOUR salary? Do you think you earned it? Paid your dues?

They do.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Good article, but it doesn't really pertain to the topic of pilot concessions, though. What does the average pay of controllers have to do with the economic survival of an airline? If the controllers receive more or less pay, that has nothing to do with an airline filing for bankruptcy or posting a profit.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Thank you.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Watch them work sometime

I have the good fortune to live in the DFW area and I have had an opportunity to watch a FW CTR corner post during rush hour. These guy's are incredible, and they earn every last cent of their salary.

Its one thing to listen to it on the radio when you're flying, its something else to SEE it on the radar scope.

Their are controller's who sit around and work 3 airplanes an hour, but those aren't the ones making the big bucks. The ones making 6 figures earn all of it.

 

[Long Time Gone]

I have the upmost respect for controllers. I wouldn't want to do it.

What's the motto again?

"Combining the science of physics with the correography of ballet"....or something like that.

 

[enigma]

Pilots average, say, 70 hard hours a month. "Month".

Man, you know better than to say that. Let's say that the average airline pilot flys four legs a day for 18 days per month. If you only count one hour before, one half hour between legs, and thirty minutes after each leg as work, the average pilot ends up "working" around fifty four hours more per month than the 70 hours you state. That comes out to around 120 hours of "work" per month.

As for as the abilities/value of controllers, I most certainly honor the job they do, BUT most of their work/stress comes from trying to prevent loss of seperation. Most of a pilots work/stress comes from trying to prevent unintentional contact with the ground. The potential for disaster is much higher when you make a pilot mistake than it was when you made a controller mistake. I don't mean to make light of a controllers responsibility, just to point out that the comparison is not really valid.

regards,
8N

 

[sleepy]

" have read so many posts lately about the Delta Pilots Pay Scales, as well as the debate about DCI contributing to concessions that I am sick. I have been wondering what exactly DCI is really thinking when they are in favor of big cuts for Delta Pilots. Do they really think that it is necessary for huge concessions, or is it just an oportunity for them to see Delta pilots hurt due to the MEC disagreement. For a change I thaught I would talk about the pay scales for ATC Controllers, and see if anyone thinks this group is a bunch of overpaid, underworked employees. The similarities are very similar."



Where have you seen any DCI pilots who were in favor of big pay cuts for the DAL pilots. I hope they don't give back a dime. I think what many of us ASA and CMR pilots are saying is that just because the DAL pilots may give pay concessions, doesn't mean we need to join them. And that the DAL pilots cannot mess with our PWA's by forcing us to take pay concessions if they do.

 

[Old Crow]

Overpaid is a factor of how much time you contributed to the profit that was generated to pay your salary. I completely agree that Delta pilots are the smartest and most skilled and have great looking wives, but the average reserve pilot works 7 days per month and the average of line holder days worked per month was 11.
This is where the term overpaid is justified.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Enigma,
You could not be more wrong. The potential is MUCH higher for a controller mistake. Tenerife, LAX, just to name two. You are in charge of A single airplane, 10 or 300 pax, it doesn't matter. If I were to make a 'mistake and two 74's or 73'. or whatever become hair, teeth and alluminum all over the sky, would you say that is a bigger disaster than if you singularly make a mistake and dig a hole? Not a valid comparison?? You have obviously never sat next to a controller who is working and directly responsible for several thousand lives at once. Again, throw in weather, and emergency aircraft and other things and then see about 'potential'.
A 727 on base for 16R in SLC, 8000 ft below MVA, 200 and 1/2, not answering the radio, yelling on frequencies trying to get them turned away from the mountains.. 2 and 1/2 miles from the mountains they casually come up on another approach freq and say "approach, ahh, are you going to turn us on the ils?" Screaming at them to turn NOW. In the turn they were with in 1 mile of the mountains. Vectoring a whole bunch of airplanes out of the way to keep from several midairs.
When they called on the ground, the captain had absolutely no idea how close they came and on the phone he was almost blaming the controller for not turning them in. Hmmm came to find out they had switched over to another freq because it was 'busy' on the other.
Still had 7 hrs left on shift....
Potential???
GET REAL.

 

[enigma]

Enigma,
You could not be more wrong. The potential is MUCH higher for a controller mistake. GET REAL.

I am real and don't disagree that a controller mistake can cause loss of life, and a large loss at that. I'm not trying to make light of the responsibility that controllers have, nor the pressure they feel to provide safety.

I should have noticed that you didn't see the point of the string from your first post. Acarpe3448 posted some points from an article in AIN. It is obvious to me that his point was NOT to be disrespectful of controllers, but to show that in some areas of aviation (ATC), professionals with a high level of training and responsibility are well paid. I thought the irony was obvious. Controllers are paid according to the responsibility level, I think that acarpe was just showing that pilots should as well. You must have taken his, and following posts including mine, as attacks on controllers. The original post in the string was about pay in relation to responsibility, not pilot versus controller.

You made it a pilot/controller comparison when you compared (incorrectly) pilot work hours to controller hours. I responded to correct that mis-statement. My point about the potential for disaster when one of us makes a mistake should have been left off, and discussed when you were not already being defensive.

Here's an attempt to explain my position without being disagreeable.

A pilot is in a position in which he has no backup at least twice each leg; V1 or thereabouts, and the approach; and anytime a critical emergency arrises. If a pilot makes a mistake at those times, the aircraft will crash and people will most likely die. You could be watching the scope, or out of the cab and there wouldn't be one thing that you could do to stop the accident.

A controller on the other hand always has someone, or some thing, between his actions and disaster. If you issue an incorrect clearance, an "aware" pilot has the chance to catch it. If you vector a flight towards the mountain instead of away, the pilot should realize that you turned him the wrong way and refuse the turn. If you clear an airplane onto the runway when someone is on final, there are four additional sets of eyes and ears looking and listening for conflicts.
A controller has computer programs watching over his shoulder, supervisors looking over his shoulder, and pilots looking out for conflicts. I can think of no time in which a controller makes a mistake that someone else doesn't have an opportunity to rectify the problem before disaster strikes. I can think of numerous situations in which a pilots mistake is only caught by the accident investigators.

In no way does any of this mean that controllers don't have huge responsibilities, and pressures placed upon them. I for one, would probably never make it out of controller initial training, so I certainly respect the job you do, I just see more potential for disaster from your mistakes as pilot than I do from your mistakes as a controller.

regards,
8N

 

[surfnole]

I think I picked the wrong career. Had I known I could have made 100K as a controller, I would have gone for that. I won't see that in my current job after 18 years.

On another note, I saw a show on Discovery Wings, and Tenerife was not the controllers fault. While its true he back-taxied a plane down the runway while another plane was in take off position, the pilot took off without a takeoff clearance.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Originally posted by acarpe3448
I have read so many posts lately about the Delta Pilots Pay Scales, as well as the debate about DCI contributing to concessions that I am sick. I have been wondering what exactly DCI is really thinking when they are in favor of big cuts for Delta Pilots.

I wasn't aware anyone at DCI had recommended a paycut for Delta pilots. I'm sure nobody's asked me to vote on it. Why are you so convinced that we all sit around in our CRJ's sticking pins in Delta pilot dolls?

Do they really think that it is necessary for huge concessions, or is it just an oportunity for them to see Delta pilots hurt due to the MEC disagreement?

Oh yeah, I'm filled with hatred for the MEC that assured I'd still have a flying job now.

Your guys refusal to talk about this "One List" business turned out to be the best thing that could have happened to us. (Who could have known that at the time, though?)

For a change I thaught I would talk about the pay scales for ATC Controllers, and see if anyone thinks this group is a bunch of overpaid, underworked employees.

Good idea. Let's ignore pressing, relevant questions and divert everybody's attention to another group of people. Hey, it worked for Hitler!

Nobody...not even us ASA guys...wants to see any more Delta pilots get furloughed or take a pay cut. But please, let's not try to duck the issue by pointing fingers at controllers. When Delta's pilots become a branch of the FAA and start flying forty hours a week, fine, then we'll talk about comparing their pay to controllers.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Enigma,
A few points.
I did not make a mistake vectoring a a/c towards mountain. That is the traffic pattern for those runways. All a/c are turned that way. All controllers DO NOT have a computer "watching over his shoulder". The center has a computer generated target so there are provisions built into theirs. The tracon has Low Altitude Alert and Collison Alerts for the ASR 8 and 9's. These are only ALERTS.
It does nothing to tell the controller what to do, how to do it and when to do it.
The "supervisors do not watch over every controllers shoulder either. It is called 'supervision'. He is on the high desk in charge of 5, 10, 20 or more controllers. He does not stand over every controller and 'look after him'.
You can 'think of no time in which a contoller makes a mistake that someone else has the opportunity to rectify it'? Again that is because you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You have never actually seen what goes on and what is involved with it. You know one side of the radio. Fine. I am sure you are good pilot. "A pilot is in a position where he has no backup"? That says a lot for your confidence in the pilot next to you. I am glad I am not in your airplane. I am confident that I have a backup when the F/O is sitting next to me.
There was no "mistake" in comparisons either.
You are one who just does not get the facts.

 

[surplus1]

I have read so many posts lately about the Delta Pilots Pay Scales, as well as the debate about DCI contributing to concessions that I am sick. I have been wondering what exactly DCI is really thinking when they are in favor of big cuts for Delta Pilots. Do they really think that it is necessary for huge concessions, or is it just an oportunity for them to see Delta pilots hurt due to the MEC disagreement.

Whoa! Where did you get that idea? I personally have as many discussions, debates, arguments, fights (?) with Delta pilots as anyone on this board, but I am certainly not in favor of "big cuts" for Delta pilots (or anyone else). I also do not want to see any Delta pilot hurt, or any other airline pilot hurt. I just can't figure how you got that idea. Our disagreements are not generated by concessions, they come from other issues.

It is true that I do NOT see any need for concessions at Comair or ASA (and also object to your lumping everyone as "DCI" - please don't do that - DCI is not an airline, its a brand name), but that has nothing to do with "wanting huge concessions" for Delta pilots.

Only the Delta pilots themselves can decide if they want to make ANY concessions and they should be left alone to make that decision. Likewise, the idea the CMR/ASA should automatically make concessions if Delta pilots do is BS, and Delta pilots should not be asking for or expecting that, as many of them have.

If the Company wants concessions from CMR/ASA they will ask for them and then WE will decide whether or not it is justified. WE, not the Delta pilots.

Obviously I can only speak for me, but I say again, I do not want any Delta pilot to be hurt (I also don't know any Comair pilot that wants that) and I have no say at all, and should not have any say, it whatever decision they make re concessions. Just like they have no say, and should not have any say, in whatever decision CMR/ASA might make in the future on the same subject.

As long as we remain "separate" those decisions have to be made by the individual pilot groups. We (ASA or CMR) have no right to determine if Delta pilots should make concessions in their compensation package, and they have no right to determine if we should make any concessions. We are "separate" airlines.

As for the other three airlines using the brand name of "DCI", they are not owned or operated by Delta. Delta can debate with them all it wants about what it pays for their services, after which their own companies can debate with their pilots about how they are compensated. Delta (the company) can't even ask those pilots for concessions. The pilots don't work for Delta and have no contract with Delta. Delta simply has a bussiness deal with their management(s).

Everyone should stop trying to put all the "DCI" eggs in the same basket. You also can't put the CMR and ASA eggs in the same basket as the DAL eggs. Delta pilots made sure of that, for which I personally am grateful. Most of my friends would be on the street if they hadn't.

 

[enigma]

Re: Re: ATC vs. DAL PILOT PAY $$$$$

. Let's ignore pressing, relevant questions and divert everybody's attention to another group of people. Hey, it worked for Hitler!

Maybe I give the original poster too much credit, but I didn't think that he intended to divert attention to another group. I thought that he was trying to show that in some areas of aviation, people get paid according to the responsibility they hold. I thought that it was an attempt to make a comparison for the purpose of elevating pilots to the level of pay respect that controllers get, not to bring controllers down.

I hope I was right, but maybe not.

regards,
8N

 

[enigma]

Enigma,
A few points.
I did not make a mistake vectoring a a/c towards mountain. That is the traffic pattern for those runways. All a/c are turned that way. All controllers DO NOT have a computer "watching over his shoulder". The center has a computer generated target so there are provisions built into theirs. The tracon has Low Altitude Alert and Collison Alerts for the ASR 8 and 9's. These are only ALERTS.
It does nothing to tell the controller what to do, how to do it and when to do it.
The "supervisors do not watch over every controllers shoulder either. It is called 'supervision'. He is on the high desk in charge of 5, 10, 20 or more controllers. He does not stand over every controller and 'look after him'.
You can 'think of no time in which a contoller makes a mistake that someone else has the opportunity to rectify it'? Again that is because you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You have never actually seen what goes on and what is involved with it. You know one side of the radio. Fine. I am sure you are good pilot. "A pilot is in a position where he has no backup"? That says a lot for your confidence in the pilot next to you. I am glad I am not in your airplane. I am confident that I have a backup when the F/O is sitting next to me.
There was no "mistake" in comparisons either.
You are one who just does not get the facts.

Sorry Sir, but you are way too personally/emotionally involved with this discussion. You got the last word on the controller issue.

About the pilot having no back up, you're nitpicking with your attempt to paint me into a Captain who has no confidence in his FO, or vice-versa. I could just as well have added an s, and said that there are occasions where the pilotS have no backup.

good day,

 

[acarpe3448]

Enigma,

You are correct in your last post. I do not mean any disrespect to ATC controllers in anyway at all. I respect them very much, and think they do a great job. My only intention was to debate if their pay scales are as hot a topic as the Delta Pilots as we move into concession talks. In both cases I think we have well trained professional men and women performing highly responsible jobs where lives are at stake. Seeing that the average pay per person is similar, I just wanted to know if people thaught they were paid to much, just like we hear that the pilots are paid to much. My hats off to all ATC controllers, Job Well Done. Keep up the good work. Once I can get by job bacl I'll look forward to working with you agin.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

acarpe,
We all hope and pray you and all of the rest of the pilots caught up in 'force manure' or whatever management wants us to believe, will soon be back at work enjoying sunrises and sunsets from aloft....