At least the auto industry gets it

[h25b]

Well, hate to say it because a lot of American workers will again be suffering from the ineptitude of management, but anyone who test drives a Honda Civic and then goes to try out a Ford Focus can quickly figure out why the U.S. manufacturers are getting their a$$es handed to them. And it's not like this hasn't been going on for a while either. For crying out loud, the foreign cars are even being assembled in the United States !!!

Every time I get a rental car I can't believe what pieces of $hit they are competing against the likes of Honda and Toyota with. Just the other day I got a Chevy Cavalier rental with only 15,000 miles on it and I had serious questions as to whether the thing would get us to the hotel.

 

[I.P. Freley]

What you gots against the Focus, yo!?

I had one for three years and it was lovely. Nothing went wrong, and it was cheaper than the Civic with similar equipment.

I just had a rental Toyota Matrix that I was totally unimpressive... 3000mi on the odo and it buzzed like a vibrator. My Focus never did that.

 

[h25b]

What you gots against the Focus, yo!?

I had one for three years and it was lovely. Nothing went wrong, and it was cheaper than the Civic with similar equipment.

You get what you pay for. Whatever the price difference is you'd be crazy not to spring for the Civic. Especially now that 06 Honda Civics are out.

The Ford Focus crew car I got the other day at Signature shook like a dog $hittin' razor blades when we were at a stop light.

The domestic cars just are outclassed in fit and finish issues and seem to age a lot worse than their foreign competitors.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Heh, well the '06 Civic wasn't available to me in Nov. of 2000.

Why am I not surprised that the CREW CAR wasn't in good shape? That car has been abused by crews for an indeterminate period of time... It could be six years old and have led a very hard life indeed. The only reason I even bothered mentioning the buzzing Toyota I rented was that it had only 3k miles on it... Using rentals or loaners as a point of reference is unfair unless the car is practically new.

I say again, 3 years with my Focus and it never needed non-routine service, except to replace the clutch return spring (the one that pulls the pedal back to the retracted position). I apologize for asserting that "nothing went wrong", that was an overstatement. That spring made all the difference. My mother had a Civic that had three trips to the dealer in the first year for mechanical issues... Including a new clutch after 10,000mi and new shocks/struts after 11,000mi (and before you get any big ideas, mom knows how to drive a manual, having driven one for almost all her years).

The only reason my Focus didn't look like new when I dumped it was the ding in the quarter panel that had nothing to do with the inherent quality of the car. Fit and finish was top-notch, regardless of the fact that it was made in Mexico.

I guess I got what I paid for, eh? Blanket statements about "domestic" cars aren't always accurate, nor are blanket statements about Hondas.

 

[sweptback]

I drive an American car (and I've never owned anything but), however one thing strikes me as funny.

Amercian car companies go to great lengths to promote the "buy American" aspect and patriotic bull####, yet make almost every part in Canada and Mexico and put two rivets into it in final assembly in America and call it American made. Then they say that they can't compete with the Japanese because they use American labor and have to pay more for it.

The Japanese car companies make their cars in the US, using US labor, and do it cheaper. Plus, they make a better product.

I think my next car's going to be Japanese.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Amercian car companies go to great lengths to promote the "buy American" aspect and patriotic bull####, yet make almost every part in Canada and Mexico and put two rivets into it in final assembly in America and call it American made. Then they say that they can't compete with the Japanese because they use American labor and have to pay more for it.

The Japanese car companies make their cars in the US, using US labor, and do it cheaper. Plus, they make a better product.

The top three manufacturing plants (according to the quality of the product) in the Americas (N and S), according to J.D. Power, are GM plants. I know that's not representative of all manufacturing plants, but the blanket statement "they make a better product" isn't necessarily true.

Also not true is your baseless comment that "American" car companies make almost every part in Canada and Mexico. Go to a car lot and look at the Domestic Content label and you'll see that you're way off base for the "average" domestic car... Excepting, of course, those domestic models that are manufactured across the border. The very nature of auto production suggests that most content will be local to the point of manufacture, aside from the drivetrain, which might be shipped in.

 

[iaflyer]

Also not true is your baseless comment that "American" car companies make almost every part in Canada and Mexico. Go to a car lot and look at the Domestic Content label and you'll see that you're way off base for the "average" domestic car... Excepting, of course, those domestic models that are manufactured across the border. The very nature of auto production suggests that most content will be local to the point of manufacture, aside from the drivetrain, which might be shipped in.

Huh? I don't know if you work in the auto industry, I don't either. However, I worked for an airline where 95% of the business was auto freight. Believe me - more than just the drivetrain is made outside the US. We carried almost every part for cars out of Mexico and Canada to final assembly plants in the US. We also to did the opposite, carrying various parts from factories in the US to final assembly plants in Mexico too.

The cost nature of the auto industry means that parts will be made where it is cheapest, in absense of other requirements. Mexican workers will assemble stuff for a whole lot cheaper than in the US. Even when you factor in shipping costs, it's much cheaper to produce parts and assemble cars outside the US.

iaflyer

 

[h25b]

Heh, well the '06 Civic wasn't available to me in Nov. of 2000.

Yo' homey, not trying to be illin' your whip.... I merely was making the point that as the years go on, Honda is widening the gap between itself and the competition.

Why am I not surprised that the CREW CAR wasn't in good shape? That car has been abused by crews for an indeterminate period of time... It could be six years old and have led a very hard life indeed. The only reason I even bothered mentioning the buzzing Toyota I rented was that it had only 3k miles on it... Using rentals or loaners as a point of reference is unfair unless the car is practically new.

That crew car I was talking about only had 18,000 miles on it. I don't care if it's a rental or crew car but anything with that low of mileage shouldn't be having problems.

I guess I got what I paid for, eh? Blanket statements about "domestic" cars aren't always accurate, nor are blanket statements about Hondas.

I have to disagree, especially with regards to blanket statements about Hondas. As a manufacturer they are amongst the highest ranked in terms of quality and resale value. This is also why you typically can not beat the lease terms against Honda, because their residual values are so high. And I have never (done it twice) had an issue turning in a leased Honda early on its lease because they are always still worth the payoff... Try doing that with a Ford Focus.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

GM/Ford and Cessna/Piper are in the same boat as Delta/Eastern.

They all make an inferior product that is not worth it, or it's priced too low (because of competition) to support the costs of delivering the product.

Toyota/Honda make a modern auto within an efficient system, that's why they're killing the big 3. Cirrus makes a modern airplane (except for FADEC, which is coming) with an efficient system, and they are killing the big 2. Jet Blue/Ryan air are very efficient and are killing their older, dinosaur competitors.

The earth is rough. If you have an organization/organism that is to survive for extended periods of time, it much be able to adjust to severe change. If it doesn't, it goes the way of the Dodo bird.

Cliff
GRB

PS-I like earth. Oftentimes it sucks, but I like the challenge.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Here's a couple of other points.

Autos:
Yes, you will find Honda's and Toyotas that are lemons, but their numbers are far lower than other manufacturers.

I know a guy that bought and sold used cars on the side. He often did it with Honda CRXs. He bought one with 450,000+ miles on the original motor, and re-sold it. It ran great. My dad's Ford Probe has had 3 engines within 200,000 miles, and it runs like crap.

US Auto Parts:
Mexico is only the beginning. We often pick up car parts in LAX coming off a -747 freighter out of China, and fly them to factories in Mexico, and then fly those finished parts to an assembly line in the US for installation.

Ford has said within 4 years they will have Fords made in China being exported to the US. Will they be sold in Wal-Mart???

GM+:
Their quality is actually very good right now, it's just that they're not building cars that Americans want, and their costs are out of control (just like Delta).

According to the investors that hold bonds and other GM instruments, they believe that GM will be Chapter 11 in 6-12 months. The US auto companies (GM/Ford/Delphi/Visteon) will dump their pensions just like the airlines did/are doing, and we, the taxpayers, will be stuck with the bill while years of incompetent management will walk away with big severence packages.

Toyota/Honda: If you buy a Avalon/Camry (made in KY), or a Civic (made in OH), your US parts content will be much higher than many models of "Big 3" autos, even those with final assembly lines in the US.

Cliff
GRB

PS-I hope Delta/GM, etc., etc. all make it. I hope they can adopt, and I hope America can retain it's position as one of the major countries in the world. It's not looking good, however. I just talked to my kids about learning Chinese.