Astra serial #'s

[Xditchdogg]

Are there any lower serial # Astras that I should stay away from? Looking to trade up from a Lear 35 to either a 650 Citation or Astra. Previous posts have led me to research the Astra.

Thanks

 

[G100driver]

Any astra that is not maintained by General Dynamics or El Corta ... period. None of the rest are factory authorzied and it will be F'd up.

At the very least, for pre-purchase I would have them do a "C" check. Offer to pay the flat rate and let the seller pay for the squawks.

 

[Lead Sled]

Any astra that is not maintained by General Dynamics or El Corta ... period. None of the rest are factory authorzied and it will be F'd up.

At the very least, for pre-purchase I would have them do a "C" check. Offer to pay the flat rate and let the seller pay for the squawks.

Huh?

Astras come in 3 basic flavors - Classic, SP, and SPX / G100. The Classics are further divided into two groups - those with SP aerodynamic mods and those without. All of the Classics came with Collins EFIS 85 systems with an analog autopilot and either the UNS1-C or the Global GNS-Xls FMSes. The SP mods on the later Classics are compprised of two items - a shroud for the windshield wiper and gear door that close more fully when the gear is extended. The only advantage to the gear door mod is that it allow you to perform slats only takeoffs.

All of the Classics and the early SPs came with TFE731-3A engines. Most, if not all, of them have been upgraded to the -3C and there are a few that are running around with DEECs and have -3D engines. The performance of any of the Astra Classics and SPs are identical. The "SP" came from a higher speed climb profile that IAI introduced with the SP. This climb profile provide the airplane with a slight increase in specific range. If you fly a Classic using the SP climb profile you will achieve SP performance.

The SPs differ from the Classics in one significant area - they all have the Collins EFIS 86 and a digital autopilot. Again, they came with either the Universal or Global FMSes.

The SPX/G100 is an order of magnatude improvement over either the Classic or SP. They came with the Collins Proline IV avionics suite and most, if not all, came with the UNS1-C FMSes. The big difference is the TFE731-40 engines. The Classics and SPs frequent the mid to upper 30's and true out at around 450 knots. The SPX flys 4000' higher than either the Classic or SP on any given day and is 10 to 20 knots faster. It also burns less fuel on any given trip.

There are no serial numbers to shy away from. What I would shy away from is any airplane equipped with "boat anchor" Global GNS-Xls FMSes. I've got over 4,000 hours in all three varients of the Astra and the best advice I could give you is to get a GOOD prepurchase inspection. That will weed out those airframes that have been ridden hard and put away wet if you know what I mean. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one shop in the country to do it and it's not General Dynamics or El Corta. Some of my biggest maintenance night mares involved those two shops. In fact General Dynamics is a real joke. If you're serious pm me and I'll put you in contact with people that will save you serious money and headaches.

LS

 

[some_dude]

What about serial number 4... er, I mean number 14?

After all, a 4 with a 1 in front of it is 14, right?

 

[some_dude]

To explain my previous post, legend has it that an early Astra customer ordered an airpane (two, as I recall) and insisted that they be serial number 10 or higher. So, IAI... I mean AstraJet... simply took number 4 and stuck a one on there, making it number 14.

The story is that the customer was not amused, and returned both airplanes (or refused to accept them, I forget which).

That's the legend, anyway.

 

[Lead Sled]

To explain my previous post, legend has it that an early Astra customer ordered an airpane (two, as I recall) and insisted that they be serial number 10 or higher. So, IAI... I mean AstraJet... simply took number 4 and stuck a one on there, making it number 14.

The story is that the customer was not amused, and returned both airplanes (or refused to accept them, I forget which).

That's the legend, anyway.

True story, but it's not an unheard of scenario either - Bill Lear was well known for it as well - "You want to buy serial number 25? OK sold!" After which they would go down to the production line and give the next unspoken for airframe a new data plate. I've flown one or two of those very early serial numbered Astras and they're fine. Like I said, there are no specific serial number ranges that you want to avoid like in the Citation 650; what you want to take a hard look at is the specific airframe. The single, most important thing that you can to is get a thorough pre-purchase inspection (which may or may not include a c-check) by a shop that knows Astras. If I were buying one, I'd prefer an SP with Universals. That would be a hard airplane to beat, better than a Citation III. However, you're going to end up paying up a premium of about $1 million for the digital autopilot. They're nice, but not necessarily $1 million nicer. That makes the Astra Classic a desirable item for someone looking for a lot of value for the dollar. Collins has certified the Proline 21 displays in the Astra Classic and SP. Our old Astra is going through the retrofit as we speak. That ought to be a pretty nice package. All in all, an Astra will give you more bang for the buck than just about any airplane out there.

Some guys will bad mouth certain features or characteristics, for example the slat flap system. Granted, early on the were troublesome; however, that's old news and they only guys who have problems with them are they guys who are maintaining them properly. They are not an issue any more. The boots are considered de-icing devices, not anti-icing devices like the heated leading edges on other aircraft. The airframe isn't prone to collecting ice so the boots aren't needed very often and when they are used, there is no aircraft performance penalty associated with their use unlike aircraft with heated leading edges.

They fly well and it's much easier to give your passengers a nice ride in one than in many other airplanes. Their big draw back is that they have a 6 hour fuel tank and a 4 hour cabin. I've never flown an Astra that wouldn't beat book performance by a percent or two. If your legs are short you could get yourself a 650, but avoid like the plague some of the early serial numbers - they'll eat you alive. If you want an airplane that will do coast-to-coast west bound on most days and be able to handle the occasional European then it's going to be hard to beat the Astra. We consistantly operated ours for less than our Lear 35. It's nowhere near as demanding to fly as a Lear either.

LS

 

[Spooky 2]

To explain my previous post, legend has it that an early Astra customer ordered an airpane (two, as I recall) and insisted that they be serial number 10 or higher. So, IAI... I mean AstraJet... simply took number 4 and stuck a one on there, making it number 14.

The story is that the customer was not amused, and returned both airplanes (or refused to accept them, I forget which).

That's the legend, anyway.

That is a true story and I forget all the details but the two aircraft in question were ordered by Johnson and Johnson, traded still in the box they came in, to Gulfstream for a Glll right at the end of Glll production. I brokered one of the aircaft from Gulfstream to a savinings and loan headquartered out in Salinas, Calif.

 

[G100driver]

Lead, I guess I was a little half cocked there. But the only decent Astra MX I got was from the factory authorized service centers. Other than that, every time I left the shop they were a mess.

(ever have someone over-service your flap actuators?)

 

[Lead Sled]

Oops...

...Some guys will bad mouth certain features or characteristics, for example the slat flap system. Granted, early on the were troublesome; however, that's old news and they only guys who have problems with them are they guys who are maintaining them properly. They are not an issue any more...

That's what you write when you're on your way to bed and you happen to stop at the computer.

This is what you write after you've had a good night's sleep and have had a chance to review what you wrote:

...Some guys will bad mouth certain features or characteristics, for example the slat flap system. Granted, early on the were troublesome; however, that's old news and they only guys who have problems with them are those guys who aren't maintaining them properly. They are not an issue any more...

Sorry about that.

Xditchdog, you are coming out of a Lear. The Astra isn't like most other airplanes in that there aren't a lot of significant mods or service bulletins that make one aircraft much different from any of the others within its grouping (Classic, SP or SPX/G100). In fact I can't think of any. There are a few of the older airplanes that are being fitted with new avionics suites, but that really doesn't count. In the Lear 35 there are many combinations and permutations of the electrical system, for example. You run into the same thing in Falcons as well. Not so in the Astra. All Classics are pretty the same; all SPs are essentially the same as the Classics. The major systems changes (and they aren't that many) occur with the SPX/G100. The G100 is different enough, because of the Proline IV and the -40 engines, that the FAA issues a separate type rating for it; however, in the United States the G100 and Astra type ratings are interchangeable. I think that if the FAA we to certify the airplane today they might not go down that same path.

LS

 

[Lead Sled]

Lead, I guess I was a little half cocked there. But the only decent Astra MX I got was from the factory authorized service centers. Other than that, every time I left the shop they were a mess.

(ever have someone over-service your flap actuators?)

The worst service I ever received was a factory authorized service center who will remain nameless. Their efforts resulted in the loss of oil and an inflight engine shutdown in an Astra Classic. The second worst service service came from Gulfstream Savanah ("Hey, what's this little airplane doing on our ramp? It's not a real Gulfstream, what's it doing here?) Again, the results were another inflight shutdown in a brand spanking new G100 with the president of General Dynamics on board.

Good maintenance, like good instructors, and good pilots are where you find them. When it comes to maintenance, talk to the high-time operators. Go where they go, use who they use. When it comes to pre-purchase inspections, we've learned the hard way that it really does make a difference who you select.

As far as over servicing the slat flap system. Yes, it can happen. It come about when you have a mechanic who doesn't understand how to properly rig the system and subscribes to the theory that if "this" much is good, then "this much more" has got to be better. Oh and by the way we don't have that type of lubricant but we can use this type of grease... You Lear 35 guys with the Aeronca T/Rs will know the problem - it's exactly the same issue.

LS

 

[some_dude]

You may indeed have operated yours for less than a Lear 35. However, that didn't make G100Driver's boss any happier when I had to pick him up in our 35 because his Astra was broken.

If the choice is between a CE650 and an Astra, the Astra probably gets the nod, but let's face it-- this is pretty much the special olympics of business jets we're talking about.

We consistantly operated ours for less than our Lear 35. It's nowhere near as demanding to fly as a Lear either.

 

[svcta]

"Special olympics"...good one!

I fly an SPX and I think it's tragic flaw is its cabin. For business travel it may be a 4 hour cabin, but for a family truckster it's more like 2 hours. Otherwise, it's fast, dead easy to fly, and I have not had one single Mx problem in 9 months of operating it(granted we don't fly much). It's not my favorite airplane, but it certainly has its merits. My gripes with it are rather specific and may not even be a bother to anyone else. Except the QRH and other tech. pubs are universally bad.

 

[G100driver]

If the choice is between a CE650 and an Astra, the Astra probably gets the nod, but let's face it-- this is pretty much the special olympics of business jets we're talking about.

LOL ... classic!

 

[heywatchthis]

Huh?

Astras come in 3 basic flavors - Classic, SP, and SPX / G100. The Classics are further divided into two groups - those with SP aerodynamic mods and those without. All of the Classics came with Collins EFIS 85 systems with an analog autopilot and either the UNS1-C or the Global GNS-Xls FMSes. The SP mods on the later Classics are compprised of two items - a shroud for the windshield wiper and gear door that close more fully when the gear is extended. The only advantage to the gear door mod is that it allow you to perform slats only takeoffs.

All of the Classics and the early SPs came with TFE731-3A engines. Most, if not all, of them have been upgraded to the -3C and there are a few that are running around with DEECs and have -3D engines. The performance of any of the Astra Classics and SPs are identical. The "SP" came from a higher speed climb profile that IAI introduced with the SP. This climb profile provide the airplane with a slight increase in specific range. If you fly a Classic using the SP climb profile you will achieve SP performance.

The SPs differ from the Classics in one significant area - they all have the Collins EFIS 86 and a digital autopilot. Again, they came with either the Universal or Global FMSes.

The SPX/G100 is an order of magnatude improvement over either the Classic or SP. They came with the Collins Proline IV avionics suite and most, if not all, came with the UNS1-C FMSes. The big difference is the TFE731-40 engines. The Classics and SPs frequent the mid to upper 30's and true out at around 450 knots. The SPX flys 4000' higher than either the Classic or SP on any given day and is 10 to 20 knots faster. It also burns less fuel on any given trip.

There are no serial numbers to shy away from. What I would shy away from is any airplane equipped with "boat anchor" Global GNS-Xls FMSes. I've got over 4,000 hours in all three varients of the Astra and the best advice I could give you is to get a GOOD prepurchase inspection. That will weed out those airframes that have been ridden hard and put away wet if you know what I mean. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one shop in the country to do it and it's not General Dynamics or El Corta. Some of my biggest maintenance night mares involved those two shops. In fact General Dynamics is a real joke. If you're serious pm me and I'll put you in contact with people that will save you serious money and headaches.

LS

Wholly ******************** do you know Astra's!

 

[400A]

Led Sled / G100

How is the flight deck comfort on the longer trips?

 

[svcta]

I've done 4 hours in it in one sitting.........and it's not bad.

 

[Lead Sled]

How is the flight deck comfort on the longer trips?

Most of the Astras that I've flown had pretty comfortable seats. The noise level justifies a comfortable headset, but ANR isn't required. For me, the biggest complaint was that the center console rubbed against the outside of my calf, but I've had that same complaint on larger and smaller airplanes - why do they always make the consoles as wide as they can? Most Astra's have an entry curtain that, if used, makes a big difference in cabin sound level.

There is no way around it, the cabin ain't the airplane's strong suite, but it's good enough most of the time. All in all, me thinks it's a pretty good compromise.

LS

 

[400A]

How do they tolerate low utilization? say 150 hours per year?

 

[wtrav8r]

How do they tolerate low utilization? say 150 hours per year?

These Planes like to fly, my experience is that they have many electrical anomolies when they sit for long periods. I am guessing this has to due with moisture in the Bonnet area (avionics bay)

In addition, it is always a crap shoot with regards to Slats deploying (Classic). The one weak system is the flap/slat system.

Cabin is nothing spectacular, however, the speed and low fuel consumption offsets this. In additional, the TO/Land numbers are fairly impressive.

Otherwise, except for the Human Factors nuisances (cockpit switch labeling), these are good machines.

 

[svcta]

We only use ours ('99 SPX) about that. It's got about 1300 TTAF and we've had it since new. It cranks up and runs flawlessly every time. We've got a great mechanic and he's ferreted out a couple of fuel leaks for us and most recently we've had some avionics woes, but it's getting to that age where those things start to happen. I don't think that sporadic use will be a problem for you.

Addition: We have had to replace a slat actuator in the past. But using lower extension speeds seems to have cut back on this problem across the fleet. And as far as the cockpit layout and labeling..I'd love to meet some Israeli engineers in a dark alley. Don't get me started on the QRH, either.