ASF Quiz needs proofreading?

[bender]

This was the third question of an AOPA ASF instrument quiz located at http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfquiz/quizzes.cfm?SA=Quizzes&QuizId=33

3. You are descending IMC on an ILS approach and have reached your DH, in order to legally continue the approach to your landing point, what must you have in sight?

A)PAPIs
B)REILs *My incorrect choice*
A pilot may not descend to intended point of landing unless the runway environment is in sight, PAPIs will only allow you to descend to 100 above touchdown zone elevation unless you also have the red terminating bars in sight 91.175
C)Threshold lights
D)Both B and C
This is the correct answer. A pilot may not descend to intended point of landing unless the runway environment is in sight, PAPIs will only allow you to descend to 100 above touchdown zone elevation unless you also have the red terminating bars in sight 91.175

I don't think I'm reading the same 91.175 that they are.

 

[FlynSuperD]

(D) only refers to (b) and (C)...not (A), which is correct, both REILs and threshold lights allow decent to the runway per 91.175

 

[bender]

ASF might have meant for answer D to say "either B and C" but they wrote "both B and C" indicating that you must have both REILs and threshold lights to descend to touchdown. But even then I still don't see why you cannot descend below 100' AGL with a PAPI in sight. Is a PAPI fundamentally different from a VASI?

(3) Except for a Category II or Category III approach where any
necessary visual reference requirements are specified by the
Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the
intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend
below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach
lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side
row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.
(ii) The threshold.
(iii) The threshold markings.
(iv) The threshold lights.
(v) The runway end identifier lights.
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.
(viii) The touchdown zone lights.
(ix) The runway or runway markings.
(x) The runway lights.

 

[pilotman2105]

ASF might have meant for answer D to say "either B and C" but they wrote "both B and C" indicating that you must have both REILs and threshold lights to descend to touchdown. But even then I still don't see why you cannot descend below 100' AGL with a PAPI in sight. Is a PAPI fundamentally different from a VASI?

"Both B and C" = Both B and C are correct answers. Not that you must have Both B and C in sight before descending.

 

[bender]

Would you please explain why the PAPI is being included with the ALS and therefore subject to the 100' AGL restriction unless the red terminating bars have been identified? We are talking about the precision approach path indicator correct?

 

[pilotman2105]

AIM v.2004 2-1-2

VASI does not equal PAPI. They're two separate systems.

 

[bender]

I still disagree with that answer so I asked a few instructors that I know about the use of a PAPI to descend to touchdown. All agreed that it qualified under the "visual approach slope indicator" of 91.175

There's an article on ipilot.com HERE that also confirms a PAPI as legal to use as a visual requirement. I'll be calling the FSDO on Monday as well to find out their opinion.

 

[pilotman2105]

I'll be calling the FSDO on Monday as well to find out their opinion.

Good luck with that. Each FSDO you call will give you a different answer.

 

[coonass one]

It's really simple. You can proceed below DH or MDA visually using any of the ten listed items in 91.175 (c)(3). The PAPI is a glorified VASI. PAPI's have 4 indicators, VASI's have 2. I don't think they are saying that the PAPI is being included with the ALS as a visual cue. Either will suffice to allow initial descent below DH or MDA. The only limitation you have is IF YOU USE THE ALS AS A VISUAL CUE, you may not proceed below 100 feet above the TDZE unless you have the red terminating bars or the red side row bars in site.

In the absence of an ALS, you simply use any of the remaining 9 visual cues to go below. No 100' rule, no side row bars or terminating bars, just one of the remaining 9 cues.

Hope this helps.