ASA decertification/recall/single list

[JoeMerchant]

Here at ASA, there has been much talk about the "silent majority", single list, decertification of ALPA, and recall of the MEC. A former adversary of mine is advocation possible recall. My friend Fins wants a single carrier petition without the ALPA decertification.

About a month ago, I started a petition to push for a single list. It includes decertification of ALPA if a single list is not achieved.

My thoughts on threatening decertification, is that it takes our local people off the hook. In other words it makes ALPA national the enemy. That may be more palatable than a recall. I am open to suggestions, but here is the petition.

Whereas: Skywest, Inc. owns both ASA and Skywest and has transferred aircraft and aircraft deliveries between the two carriers while the ASA pilots are currently in contract negotiations.

Whereas: Scope is the foundation of any good contract.

Whereas: ALPA is actively trying to recruit the Skywest pilot group.

Whereas: Both ALPA and Teamsters have successfully negotiated single pilot seniority lists in the past at American Eagle, Mesa Air Group, and Republic Holdings.

Whereas: ASA pilot contract negotiations, and a growing difficulty attracting and retaining pilots, have combined to open a window of opportunity to pursue a combined single pilot seniority list on the Skywest Inc. property.

Therefore be it resolved: The following ASA pilots, by signing this petition request ALPA to use all available resources to ensure a single pilot seniority list at Skywest, Inc. This single pilot seniority list must include the pilots of ASA, Skywest, and of any certificate or subsidiary that may be added in the future, regardless of aircraft size. In the event ALPA is either unwilling or unable to achieve a single list at Skywest, Inc., then the following ASA pilots will pursue other representational options with the National Mediation Board.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Let's quote me right. I would like a single list as our scope section in section 6 negotiations. The chances of a single carrier petition outside of section 6 are nearly zero. We need to get this thing done by the most effective means available.

That doen't mean decertifying ALPA. That just muddies up the water and kills your effort before it even gets started. If you want what you say you want, you need to empower your legal representatives to get it for you.

I would gladly sign that petition (absent the threats), but shouldn't it be a Resolution to get it passed at an LEC meeting to have greater effect? I want a Proxy!

 

[JoeMerchant]

I would gladly sign that, but shouldn't it be a Resolution to get it passed at an LEC meeting to have greater effect?

Fins,

The problem is that the majority of people who attend LEC meetings are ALPA true believers. The opposition will be a minority at an LEC meeting. In fact, the majority of people there, will either be officers or committee members. They will most likely not vote it in.

A petition with 500 signatures will send a message. A resolution at the LEC meeting will most likely be seen by 50 or so pilots, most of which will oppose it....

If there is a true "silent majority", they won't be at the meeting...

If ALPA fails to deliver, then those who sign the petition will start the process to replace ALPA... the choice will be up to ALPA....

 

[~~~^~~~]

OK, do both then. I want to sign a Petition and a Proxy (absent irrelevant threats that render it a waste of paper and effort).

ALPA can help, or hinder, your effort. Nobody needs enemies when they are trying to accomplist something important.

 

[JoeMerchant]

OK, do both then. I want to sign a Petition and a Proxy.

Actually Fins, that is a great idea. Let's do both.

Who wants to carry one to the LEC meeting as a resolution?

Fins, will you still sign it with the decertification language in it? I'm not doing one without it.

(Edit: I noticed you edited your post.... doesn't look like you are willing to sign it the way I have it written)

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins, will you still sign it with the decertification language in it? I'm not doing one without it?

Nope. The decertification language renders it dead on arrival and is irrelevant.

There are logical, sequential, steps to follow. Admittedly this is several years late already but you can not jump to the worst case contingency of hitting the FIRE push button & blowing the bottles before you see smoke, or have a FIRE warning. If you push the button on the ramp, this flight will not ever leave the gate.

Why do you insist on attaching an irrelevant threat to the Petition? Why do you want ALPA off the property more than you want to preserve your job? Priorities, priorities. As is, you may get what you want, but I think if you show up with a 1,000 names on a petition ALPA will get the message loud and clear.

By putting threats on your petition you only guarantee that it will never get popular support, out of fear, if nothing else.

"One List" is easy to support

One List, De-Certify ALPA in the end game of negotiations, fire everyone with any experience in labor leadership, find a new agent and get noobies to represent us" is impossible to support. Jerry Atkin himself has not tried to sell us that. If he offered even he would probably not get any support which is why he decided not to go that route.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Nope. The decertification language renders it dead on arrival and is irrelevant.

There are logical, sequential, steps to follow. Admittedly this is several years late already but you can not jump to the worst case contingency of hitting the FIRE push button & blowing the bottles before you see smoke, or have a FIRE warning. If you push the button on the ramp, this flight will not ever leave the gate.

Why do you insist on attaching an irrelevant threat to the Petition? Why do you want ALPA off the property more than you want to preserve your job? Priorities, priorities. As is, you may get what you want, but I think if you show up with a 1,000 names on a petition ALPA will get the message loud and clear.

By putting threats on your petition you only guarantee that it will never get popular support, out of fear, if nothing else.

"One List" is easy to support

One List, De-Certify ALPA in the end game of negotiations, fire everyone with any experience in labor leadership, find a new agent and get noobies to represent us" is impossible to support. Jerry Atkin himself has not tried to sell us that. If he offered even he would probably not get any support which is why he decided not to go that route.

Simple answer Fins. It is ALPA that is preventing us from asking for a single list. A single list will require a representational vote and ALPA doesn't want that. In other words, the very act of getting a single list, may spell the end of ALPA at ASA. For that reason, your union is fighting a single list.

The CNC Chairman said point blank that we could not ask for a single list, and that he had no idea how Mesa, CHQ, and EGL pulled it off. Sorry but that is grounds for termination from his position IMO.

You posted in another thread that you have been personally threatend by someone from ALPA because of your support of RJDC. ALPA is not an honerable organization.... it does not tolerate dissent.

Go ahead and present a toned down resolution. IMHO, it will be a waste of time.... ALPA hasn't let me down yet on my predictions....

You said that it will DOA with the threat, I think any petition/resolution will be DOA without a threat. ALPA doesn't change it's behavior until it is threatened.....

 

[TexPilot]

You know.. you could just exchange numbers and talk about it over the phone...
I'm just sayin...

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

Lol...

 

[shamrock]

Whereas: Skywest, Inc. owns both ASA and Skywest and has transferred aircraft and aircraft deliveries between the two carriers while the ASA pilots are currently in contract negotiations.

Whereas: Scope is the foundation of any good contract.

Whereas: ALPA is actively trying to recruit the Skywest pilot group.

Whereas: Both ALPA and Teamsters have successfully negotiated single pilot seniority lists in the past at American Eagle, Mesa Air Group, and Republic Holdings.

Whereas: ASA pilot contract negotiations, and a growing difficulty attracting and retaining pilots, have combined to open a window of opportunity to pursue a combined single pilot seniority list on the Skywest Inc. property.

Therefore be it resolved: The following ASA pilots, by signing this petition request ALPA to use all available resources to ensure a single pilot seniority list at Skywest, Inc. This single pilot seniority list must include the pilots of ASA, Skywest, and of any certificate or subsidiary that may be added in the future, regardless of aircraft size. In the event ALPA is either unwilling or unable to achieve a single list at Skywest, Inc., then the following ASA pilots will pursue other representational options with the National Mediation Board.

I wonder how much better a chance this would have if it were to come from someone other than JB.

 

[Palerider957]

The easier answer is to leave ASA for greener pastures.....let the carion creatures pull at the corpse of ASA until it's nothing but bones baking in the sun.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Palerider you are correct and if you find greener pastures it is a win / win for management and the individual pilot. However, after a ten year investment at ASA, greener pastures can be difficult to find. After all, the first several years at ASA were terrific. ASA was Regional Airline of the Year, Skip Barnette was on magazine covers and Bombardier even gave my friends and I free food & a beer at the Paris Airshow (something about a 10 billion dollar RJ order seemed to move even the French sense of hospitality) Those were heady days. Bought by Delta, great pass benefits and new jets that smelled like a Mercedes showroom. Upgrades were 24 months from hire dates and some people were holding a line immediately. We were told ASA was a career airline and I for one, looked around and thought, sure. Throw in a generous (by today's reduced standards) 401K match, decent benefits and a commutable schedule and it is not easy to walk away. (In fact, take away the constant threats & aircraft transfers and ASA is still a pretty darn good job & a lot of fun to boot)

At most of the majors now (excluding UPS, FedEx, Delta, ExPat carriers and possibly World) it would take 9 to 12 years to break even and make a profit on your "greener pasture." Then there are the issues of getting solid connections that will push your application past the other five to eleven thousand applications on file. Even with those connections the quickest a person coul get on with FedEx is a year and right now the prognosis is more like two to three years with age 65 entering the equation. AirTran and CAL are not the "no brainer" choices they used to be and even mighty SouthWest is showing signs of succumbing to economic reality. Delta and UPS look real good and candidly I'm not too informed on the fractional choice you made.

So some have chosen to stay and continue to try to make ASA a better place. (Which was a friendly fire battle from within ALPA to start and is now a defensive battle on several fronts making an alliance with ALPA needed to fight larger external threats)​

I don't think it is a good idea for pilots collectively to decide that regional airlines (which make up 50% of network flying in the United States) are temporary jobs which should be filled by people with the same sense of loyalty and committment to their profession that waitresses and fast food cooks have. Regional Airline pilots are professionals, they perform a real job and have real responsibilities.​

Further, branded airline pilots are now having to compete with the non branded carriers for flying. Have you seen Delta's 100 seat rates? They are "regional" rates. That might make Delta a 7 to 10 year break even proposition in the future.

So yes, your "greener pasture" idea is right for an individual. But for our profession, it is wrong.

I'm "greener pasture" bound myself, but completely understand and support the "lifers" who have sweat equity in the airline.

 

[Speedtape]

For Joe Merchant only:


I have a better idea. This will resolve all your issues. Maybe someone should start a petition to romove you from the Union. We would all be better off, including yourself.

Or, as someone mentioned, find another job. Use the energy you expend going on one man campaigns to change the world, as you know it, in a more constructive way.

Tomorrow morning, take a long look in the mirror! Your behavior is symptomatic of schizophrenia:

1 : a psychotic disorder characterized by loss of contact with the environment, by noticeable deterioration in the level of functioning in everyday life, and by disintegration of personality expressed as disorder of feeling, thought (as in hallucinations and delusions), and conduct -- called also </I>dementia praecox </I>
2 : contradictory or antagonistic qualities or attitudes <both parties... have exhibited schizophrenia over the desired outcome </I>-- Elizabeth Drew</I>></I>


Dr. Phil is waiting for your call.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Deleted..... Thanks

 

[Dude]

Sadly, I think that the reality is that taking anything at this point greatly increases your viability at ASA rather than holding a particular line to gain a fair and equitable contract. Fortunately, my opinions are just that.......mine. I fly airplanes for a living and lack the intestinal fortitude or melon to be an expert or in management. I think Atkin is a smart fella and would relish in transferring assets from one certificate to another to ensure that unionization does not permeate the ranks in St. George. I can't say that I blame him. I hope, for the sake of all of those that I had the privilege to fly alongside aren't being put in a position to have to fly to SLC in the near future for an interview. Sometimes preservation is better than prosperity.

Fins, my friend, I couldn't agree with you more. What I do at SWA is no different than what I did at ASA, only easier. I don't have to micromanage anything, therefore, the job is considerably easier. Flying is flying. International, domestic, big markets and small; they require someone to raise and lower the gear while safely flying from one point to the other. The drastic difference in pay and benefits is terrible for the integrity of the profession. It amazes me that we value a pilot based on the size of aircraft and how many folks are sitting in the back. What's the difference if a guy flies two legs in an 88 with 300 folks or a guy flies an RJ six legs with 300. I'll tell you the difference; it's about 3-8 more hours of duty and a much more fatigued RJ crew with about half of the pay. This business is broken and as long as we allow 250-1000 hour pilots flood the training center the pay will never increase and why should it? They are lining up to do it for free and in many cases paying to do it. I wish all the best to the dying at ASA and hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel that isn't a train.

BTW, it would hardly take that amount of time to break even at SWA. Maybe two years if you only flew 12-14 days a month. I was caught up in my first year. I flew a lot, but it paid.

 

[Palerider957]

Palerider you are correct and if you find greener pastures it is a win / win for management and the individual pilot. However, after a ten year investment at ASA, greener pastures can be difficult to find. After all, the first several years at ASA were terrific. ASA was Regional Airline of the Year, Skip Barnette was on magazine covers and Bombardier even gave my friends and I free food & a beer at the Paris Airshow (something about a 10 billion dollar RJ order seemed to move even the French sense of hospitality) Those were heady days. Bought by Delta, great pass benefits and new jets that smelled like a Mercedes showroom. Upgrades were 24 months from hire dates and some people were holding a line immediately. We were told ASA was a career airline and I for one, looked around and thought, sure. Throw in a generous (by today's reduced standards) 401K match, decent benefits and a commutable schedule and it is not easy to walk away. (In fact, take away the constant threats & aircraft transfers and ASA is still a pretty darn good job & a lot of fun to boot)

At most of the majors now (excluding UPS, FedEx, Delta, ExPat carriers and possibly World) it would take 9 to 12 years to break even and make a profit on your "greener pasture." Then there are the issues of getting solid connections that will push your application past the other five to eleven thousand applications on file. Even with those connections the quickest a person coul get on with FedEx is a year and right now the prognosis is more like two to three years with age 65 entering the equation. AirTran and CAL are not the "no brainer" choices they used to be and even mighty SouthWest is showing signs of succumbing to economic reality. Delta and UPS look real good and candidly I'm not too informed on the fractional choice you made.

So some have chosen to stay and continue to try to make ASA a better place. (Which was a friendly fire battle from within ALPA to start and is now a defensive battle on several fronts making an alliance with ALPA needed to fight larger external threats)​

I don't think it is a good idea for pilots collectively to decide that regional airlines (which make up 50% of network flying in the United States) are temporary jobs which should be filled by people with the same sense of loyalty and committment to their profession that waitresses and fast food cooks have. Regional Airline pilots are professionals, they perform a real job and have real responsibilities.​

Further, branded airline pilots are now having to compete with the non branded carriers for flying. Have you seen Delta's 100 seat rates? They are "regional" rates. That might make Delta a 7 to 10 year break even proposition in the future.

So yes, your "greener pasture" idea is right for an individual. But for our profession, it is wrong.

I'm "greener pasture" bound myself, but completely understand and support the "lifers" who have sweat equity in the airline.

Fins, I totally understand your point, and kudos to you for having stuck it out for so long. To be honest I believe you are fighting an uphill battle, one that I'm not sure can be won.

As more pilots leave ASA, and new-hires pour in, the sense of history (good and bad) is lost. The drive to effect positive change is undermined by new pilots who haven't been subjected to years of abuse and ineptness of the company. How do you expect to get a decent (notice I said decent, not industry leading) when the bulk of pilots were hired in the last couple of years? They have no credibility with ALPA, or management. Both know they won't really strike or force some kind of a job action by "flying the POH." What is the leverage ASA pilots have to effect positive change? Yes, you have your hands on the business, but collectively don't have the nerve to force change.

Why do people stay in such an environment? There, for some reason, is perceived stability vs. a corporate job, a "schedule" is attractive to some (although I remember being on reserve for over three years, and being JM'ed, and extended quite often, having my golden days put over the top of my vacation days, etc., etc.)

Vote with your feet. There are MUCH better jobs out there....anyway, I left ASA and felt my life has been happier and healthier.

Good luck to all at ASA.

 

[outtahere]

Joe I got one word for you, Mesa! Look at their contract, is that what you would have for the ASA pilots? For God sakes man, you cannot buy something by yourself in our contract, and I don't see that many in that silent majority that our willing to subject us to mesa type working conditions. PS, that is how mesa got a single list, no block or better, 8 days off on reserve, and POS pay rates, oh boy that sounds gooooood!

 

[Jmoney]

Mr. Merchant

Let's just de-certify ALPA and replace it with the RJDC. That would be awesome! Maybe we can all get our bitchin' Big Wheels out, mount up those trusty steeds and go tilting at some windmills.
Personally, I think the RJDC is a mgmt. construct to divide the union-it works pretty durn well, don't it. I can'r figure out anything else it is effective at.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe I got one word for you, Mesa! Look at their contract, is that what you would have for the ASA pilots? For God sakes man, you cannot buy something by yourself in our contract, and I don't see that many in that silent majority that our willing to subject us to mesa type working conditions. PS, that is how mesa got a single list, no block or better, 8 days off on reserve, and POS pay rates, oh boy that sounds gooooood!

1. CHQ did it, and their contract wasn't as bad as the Mesa contract.

2. Where would Mesa be now, going into contract negotiations, if they hadn't secured a single list, and if JO had continued to shift assets to Freedom?

3. We wouldn't have to take a "Mesa" contract, but we would have to give up some other "goodies"... sometimes you have to look long term for the payoff, sadly many in ALPA think next year is "long term"...

 

[sweptback]

1. CHQ did it, and their contract wasn't as bad as the Mesa contract.

When CHQ did it, Republic was just a threat. They had no certificate, no airplanes, and they had no pilots other than a few management types. They got the scope they wanted pretty cheap because there wasn't much substance there. Apples to oranges.

Freedom and Mesa was a little bit different situation, as Freedom was already operating. Still, Freedom was just a small percentage of ASMs of Mesa Air Group as a whole, and the union had to pretty much give away the farm to secure scope.

Now, let's look at ASA/SkyWest. ASA is less than half, probably closer to 35-40% of total SkyWest, Inc. flying. What kind of leverage do we have to force single list? More importantly, how can the little guy scope in the big guy? I'm not saying it can't be done, but I just don't see how it can be. All the American Eagle carriers had a management that was receptive to a single certificate (well, two technically, but single list nonetheless) for all Eagle flying, and they still had to accept a 16-year contract to secure it. With a hostile management group, over half of the pilot group of Inc. not wanting single list (mainly because they're much more junior and also receiving all the growth at ASA's expense), how can we pull this off?