Approach Question

[great cornholio]

Back in my CFII days I used to know this crap but since I've been away from that scene for 3 years I'm kinda rusty. Me and a buddy were having a discussion about this cause hes getting ready for an interview so we looked at some Jepp Plates. The 2 we looked at were the PIA ILS 4 and the PIA ILS 13. The question is for the ILS 4. The PIA vor is off the airport. Question is you are over the PIA vor and non-radar cleared for the approach how you would shoot the approach. PIA vor to KHUBS (IAF) has a thin gray line with the 167 Radial. From what I remember this just shows how to ID the KHUBS and is not a Feeder Route (its not dark and has no distance or altitude) so you can not fly that radial to get to KHUBS. My buddy says different he says you can fly that radial and then enter the hold in lieu of a Procedure Turn at KHUBS. If it makes a difference PIA vor is the hold point for the Missed. Also notes at top of plate say "ADF, DME, or RADAR required"

The ILS 13 also has PIA vor in it and it has a feeder route to ADLER (IAF). This feeder route is dark black and has 345 radial 2.8 for the distance and 2500 for the Altitude. I say this is legal to shoot the appraoch from the vor this time cause its a feeder route.

Anyways I guess long story short is how would you shoot the 1st appraoch from over the vor if the only thing with that vor is the thin gray line with radial only no distance no altitude and the holding pattern that defines the hold for the missed. I say you can't do it.

 

[minitour]

I'd say PIA to KHUBS via the PIA R-167.

I'd probably expect a "maintain (8,000 - something!) until established on a published portion of the approach, cleared ILS 4"

so...I'd say stay at your last assigned altitude, go to Khubs, descend in the "hold" until 2,600 then proceed inbound and report all that stuff (as required) to (Approach, Center, whoever...)

That's my take on it...

 

[midlifeflyer]

Great approach to study. You are correct coprnholio. That line emanating from the VOR just tell you that you can identify the IAF by using a combination of the VOR, DME, and the ADF. It's =not= a feeder route.

One possibility is mini's - at the very least ATC would give you an instruction to get to the FAF, something like "proceed direct KHUBS..."

Another is that the PIA R167 is also a victor airway (I don't have the enroute chart so I don't know whether that's true), in which case "cleared for the approach" would have you at the last assigned altitude and tracking the airway until you identified KHUBS - the equivalent of what your buddy said..


You would not get

 

[mike1mc]

IFirst off ya you wouldn't be shooting this approach without radar as per the notes.

Read the notes closer... "ADF, DME, or RADAR required" Most approaches that have notes like "RADAR REQUIRED" will not have a procedure turn becuse you will always be given radar vectors to the IAF.

Heres a link to the approach plate

 

[great cornholio]

Thanks for all of the help guys. I looked at an enroute chart and sure enough that radial is part of a victor airway. KHUBS is even on the chart cause the loc is used to ID the intersection. Anyways without knowing that the radial was part of the airway and all you had was the approach plate. Then I would say that with the PIA radar out then you could shoot the approach but you couldnt start the approach from over the VOR. Anyways thats still my take on it. Of course in real life you could shoot the approach becasue its part of an airway and that is of course legal to fly on. Well thanks again guys. Once again flightinfo comes thru. I swear you can ask anything on here.

 

[CRJ Driver]

Thanks for all of the help guys. I looked at an enroute chart and sure enough that radial is part of a victor airway. KHUBS is even on the chart cause the loc is used to ID the intersection. Anyways without knowing that the radial was part of the airway and all you had was the approach plate. Then I would say that with the PIA radar out then you could shoot the approach but you couldnt start the approach from over the VOR. Anyways thats still my take on it. Of course in real life you could shoot the approach becasue its part of an airway and that is of course legal to fly on. Well thanks again guys. Once again flightinfo comes thru. I swear you can ask anything on here.

But you dont know what ATC's lowest min altitude is without radar, it might be higher than g/s intercept altitude, in that case you cant do the approach.

 

[hawg2hawk]

I just earned my military instrument rating, which makes #3 for me (including my CFII etc) so this stuff is pretty fresh... and I'm standing duty right now at 1am so I went in the pubs room to grab the plates and a FIH to look up the answers for you and here's what I get...



First off ya you wouldn't be shooting this approach without radar as per the notes. However if you do find yourself in this situation... the most appropriate thing to do IMO would be to fly the 167 to KHUBS at the MSA of 2800 (or last expected, assinged, etc.)... hit the fix and make a tear drop entry, join the inbound, when established either decend to 2600 and intercept the GS or just maintain 2800 (what I would do) and intercept the GS from up there... it's an at or above altitude, not a hard alt. You're correct that the R-167 is not a feeder route, but who cares? You can use it to navigate to, and ID the IAF.

Maybe on #4 you'll read them notes a little closer?

 

[Singlecoil]

But you dont know what ATC's lowest min altitude is without radar, it might be higher than g/s intercept altitude, in that case you cant do the approach.

WTF? Over... If it ain't radar required, then published altitudes are good without radar. Anyone have a link to be able to view these charts?

 

[CRJ Driver]

WTF? Over... If it ain't radar required, then published altitudes are good without radar. Anyone have a link to be able to view these charts?

Dumba$$ how are you going to desend for the approach if ATC cant get you to the same altitude to start the ILS because ATC RADAR is OUT....let me guess you would do it anyway......read the plate RADAR REQUIRED............bunghole.....

 

[minitour]

Dumba$$ how are you going to desend for the approach if ATC cant get you to the same altitude to start the ILS because ATC RADAR is OUT....let me guess you would do it anyway......read the plate RADAR REQUIRED............bunghole.....

uhhh...hey "bunghole"...

If you've got ADF or DME, you don't need RADAR...it's an EITHER/OR thing...

They could very easily clear you for the approach from a whole bunch of altitudes.

"Cleared present position direct KHUBS, Maintain 15,000 until established on a published portion of the approach, cleared ILS 4, report arriaving at and leaving KHUBS."

What's wrong with that clearance? They cleared you for the approach without radar (necessarily), gave you an altitude, and an approach clearance...told you where they want reports....seems pretty simple to me.

Does anyone know why the ADF, DME or RADAR requirements are there? You can identify the appropriate intersections with cross-radials from the VOR and the miss is right at the VOR, so I'd think if you could shoot the approach (have an OBS), you could fly the approach without too much trouble. I do realize that KHUBS is a DME fix too and can also be identified on RADAR plus using the bearing to the LOM station, but...I can't see why you would need the ADF, DME, or RADAR...maybe I'm missing something easy.

-mini