approach mins

[rk772]

OK, stupid question. we were on a part 135 flight the other day and the weather at the destination was 100 and 1/2. My Fo made the statement that we can't fly the ILS because its below mins of 200 1/2. I told him we only needed visibility of 1/2 (which we had) and the ceiling was not required. He went to look it up in the FAR's after landing and could not find it.
Where is this located.

Thanks.

 

[gern_blanston]

You are correct. Visibility is controlling.
http://www.superunicom.com/ceiling.htm

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Don't have the reg in front of me for the number but Vis is controlling, RVR if it is given, if not then statute vis. You can shoot the approach with zero ceiling as long as you have the RVR.

Tell your F/O to learn his regs for any future interviews. That very question is asked at many airlines.

 

[777_Jackpot]

OK, stupid question. we were on a part 135 flight the other day and the weather at the destination was 100 and 1/2. My Fo made the statement that we can't fly the ILS because its below mins of 200 1/2. I told him we only needed visibility of 1/2 (which we had) and the ceiling was not required. He went to look it up in the FAR's after landing and could not find it.
Where is this located.

Thanks.

Yeah, its 91.175 (c)(2) and 91.175 (d) "The flight visibility is not less than that prescribed in the standard instrument approach being used..."

-91.175 (c)(2) is one of the three requirments to continue a descent below MDA/DA.

-91.175 (d) is the requirment to land

Obviously in your application the visibility is controlling outside of the FAF/FAP

 

[CFIse]

The poster said this was Part 135 - not Part 91 not Part 121. Here's the reg.

FAR 135.225(a):
(a) No pilot may begin an instrument approach procedure to an airport unless -
(1) That airport has a weather reporting facility operated by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by U.S. National Weather Service, or a source approved by the Administrator; and
(2) The latest weather report issued by that weather reporting facility indicates that weather conditions are at or above the authorized IFR landing minimums for that airport.

It says WEATHER - and a variety of interpretations have said that WEATHER includes the ceiling. So thanks to eveybody for playing, but most of you were playing the wrong game, and the person who said they couldn't take the ILS at 100 and 1/2 was right.

 

[CA1900]

Try again, CFIse.

Part 135 operators are still bound by Part 91 in many circumstances, including this one. (Indeed, 135.225, which you quoted, makes specific reference to 91.175 regarding minimums dropping while on the final approach segment.)

91.175 - Takeoff And Landing Under IFR
(d) Landing. No pilot operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, may land that aircraft when— ...
(2) For all other part 91 operations and parts 121, 125, 129, and 135 operations, the flight visibility is less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used.

That's it. Flight Visibility. That's the "authorized IFR landing minimums for that airport," as spelled out very specifically in the regs. The ceiling has nothing to do with it.

 

[CFIse]

What a fascinating interpretation - care to explain this FAA letter of interpretation then?




FAA Legal Opinion:
"March 21, 1991
Mr. Glenn Rizner
Technical Specialist, Membership Services Department
Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association
Frederick, MD 21701-4798

Dear Mr. Rizner:

We recently received a letter from the Assistant Chief Counsel for the Eastern Region of the Federal Aviation Administration asking us to give a legal interpretation of a question you posed to them concerning Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). We apologize for the delay in answering your query.

The question was: Are both ceiling and visibility required in order for an FAR Part 135 air carrier pilot to initiate an instrument approach?

FAR 135.225(a) and 135.225(a)(2) forbid a Part 135 pilot from beginning an instrument approach unless reported weather conditions at the destination airport are at or above the authorized IFR landing minimums for that airport. So, even though ceiling is not a criterion on the approach plates, it must be considered by the pilot in his decision to initiate the approach, and in deciding whether the reported ceiling is above or below the decision height or minimum descent altitude for the approach. Similarly, FAR 135.225(b) forbids initiation of a final approach segment unless reported conditions are at or above minimums. Again, the pilot must know the reported ceiling and visibility before deciding whether that approach segment can legally be initiated.

This interpretation has been coordinated with the Air Transportation Division of the Flight Standards Service. We hope that this satisfactorily answers your question.

Sincerely,

/s/

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division cc: AGC-220/AGC-200/AFS-230/AEA-7
mc: 200 91 0021"

 

[nosehair]

What a fascinating interpretation - care to explain this FAA letter of interpretation then?

Wow!! What a ball-buster, CFIse!! As far as I know, the whole aviation world goes by flight visibility as the "minimums required", this letter is news, even though it is dated 1991. Let's see how this plays out....

 

[bafanguy]

FAA Legal Opinion:
"March 21, 1991

So, even though ceiling is not a criterion on the approach plates, it must be considered by the pilot in his decision to initiate the approach, and in deciding whether the reported ceiling is above or below the decision height or minimum descent altitude for the approach.

I wonder what this guy's definition of "considered" is. That might be the key to his confusing statement.

 

[TonyC]

As far as I know, the whole aviation world goes by flight visibility as the "minimums required", ...

The WHOLE aviation world? WOW. I've seen a large portion of it, and I'd be scared to make such a broad statement. But, you DID qualify it with the "as far as I know." Whew!



Not that it's relevant, but all of my Air Force flying required ceiling and visibility.




.