Any Legacy Operators - How is the Legacy selling?

[On Your Six]

I have seen a few coporate Legacy aircraft out there recently. I know of one based out of SDL (or PHX) and I think another based out of SMO/SNA.

I would think they would be very popular with the abundance of 135/145 aircraft and pilots out there (great maintenance and training capabilities in the US) and their low acquisition cost vs. a Gulfstream or Falcon. While they can't perform as well as GIV/GVs or Falcon 2000/900s, they certainly have a roomy cabin for the price. Anyone out there fly one? How do you like it vs. what you previously flew?

If there is one drawback, it looks like the flight deck is a bit cramped/uncomfortable for longer transcon or Hawaii flights - am I right?

 

[LegacyDriver]

Cockpit is huge as far as I am concerned. I'm pretty tall, but it is more than adequate. The only thing about the cockpit I hate (other than the lack of a backlit radar panel) is the seat cushion. It gets mashed down pretty easily in a short period of time and isn't that comfortable. Better than some, but could be improved upon.

And it's loud above 270 knots. Great airplane. I hope it begins to sell well. Saw a decent writeup about it in FLYING magazine last month. Maybe that will tickle the fancy of a few well-to-do types.

 

[G100driver]

And it's loud above 270 knots. Great airplane. I hope it begins to sell well. Saw a decent writeup about it in FLYING magazine last month. Maybe that will tickle the fancy of a few well-to-do types.

Probalby not. The type of guy who who buys an international jet will most likely stick to the name brands. There will be the occational odd ball (Intel), but for the most part, your super millionaire will want what the other super millionaires have ... only with a cooler paint job.

 

[Heavy Set]

I disagree. When a rich guy can see that a Legacy costs about the same as a new Citation X but has so much more room, then I think more Legacies will sell. It's got a lot of room for the buck... Plus, with all of the Embraers flying around, maintenance and training are non-issues. I think FLOPS is introducing the Legacy to a lot of potential Legacy owners...

 

[GVFlyer]

Jungle Jets

The Army just signed a contract for 5 specially equiped ERJ-145's for the Aerial Common Sensor mission in what could ultimately be a 7 billion dollar deal. The Army has the lead in this program and the Navy will buy what the Army selects. An assembly plant will be built in the US to meet domestic content requirements. The Lockheed-Embraer entry won out over the Northrup Grumman Gulfstream entry primarily because of cost. Gulfstream had hoped to provide the G450 for this mission.

The Army will have to limit operations in or near Florida,a geographic region which seems to cause empennage failures in the Embraer products.

GV

 

[banned username 2]

The Army will have to limit operations in or near Florida,a geographic region which seems to cause empennage failures in the Embraer products.

I have been looking for a picture of that for a long time, do you happen to have a link to one???

 

[xrated]

I disagree. When a rich guy can see that a Legacy costs about the same as a new Citation X but has so much more room, then I think more Legacies will sell.

It better be more comfortable than a X because on a coast to coast trip you're gonna spend well over an hour more time on the Legacy. Compare it all you want to a X, when it's all said and done and production is over for both types, I'll bet the X with prove to be three times as successful as the Legacy. The competition for the Legacy is the used Gulfstream market. I think those who no aviation will probably go with the Gulfstream. Many owners of new Legacies are first time jet owners and don't know any better. As far as the Options deal goes, the EMB's they are opperating have the old engines and are next to useless with more than 4-5 people on board.

 

[AA717driver]

Time is money. M.75 doesn't cut it in this arena.TC

 

[LegacyDriver]

The Legacy is .80 Mach, not .75 Mach.

Reliability, safety, and all that sort of thing are a big plus for the Embraer. Tons of parts and pilots...low operating costs... Maybe your mega-billionaires will go with Gulfstreams, but it is possible that the guys that are not quite in the Tiger Woods/Bill Gates league will be persuaded to go with the EMB based on costs. People don't become wealthy by wasting money.

 

[NJA Capt]

The Legacy is .80 Mach, not .75 Mach.
People don't become wealthy by wasting money.

They don't get rich sitting in the plane for an extra hour+ either.

With all due respect, I think the Legacy has a fantastic cabin, but it is WAY to slow for this mission. Aircraft with cabins the size of the Gulfstreams and Globals are expected to roam around at .87. Plus, it can't climb into low Earth orbit (51K) with the Xs, Gs and Globals.

Quite often, we have X owners fly in a GIV as a backup. They complain that the GIVSP is too slow.

Limos are good in traffic (long hours). Ferraris are good on open roads.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

The only buyers of this will be the occasional bizjet shuttle operator. - needs to pack in a bunch of seats airline style.

Its a 2 hour noisy vibrating regional jet..People dread riding on these things, why would they buy one?

you can dress up an ugly pig but its still an ugly pig.

At least the BBJ and the Airbus appeal to the oil sheik types...this one has no market.

 

[GVFlyer]

I have been looking for a picture of that for a long time, do you happen to have a link to one???

Here's one...

http://www.safe-skies.com/EMB145_1.jpg

GV

 

[LegacyDriver]

The Legacy is a far cry from the RJ. It has much a much better interior (i.e. amazingly comfortable and roomy) and soundproofing setup than any RJ.

Slow is relative. It's faster than a lot of airplanes. It's not meant to compete with the Gulfstream, IIRC. It's a super-midsize probably meant to pull people from Citations and the like.

I agree the market doesn't look promising for it, but it's a fine airplane.

 

[Heavy Set]

Ramp "Presence" is Important to Rich People Too...

They don't get rich sitting in the plane for an extra hour+ either.

With all due respect, I think the Legacy has a fantastic cabin, but it is WAY to slow for this mission. Aircraft with cabins the size of the Gulfstreams and Globals are expected to roam around at .87. Plus, it can't climb into low Earth orbit (51K) with the Xs, Gs and Globals.

Quite often, we have X owners fly in a GIV as a backup. They complain that the GIVSP is too slow.

Limos are good in traffic (long hours). Ferraris are good on open roads.

I think the speed thing is a bit overblown - it doesn't apply to everyone who has cash. I would think that any owner of an Excel, Hawker 800XP or a Falcon 50 who want to upgrade to a slightly larger aircraft at a "reasonable" incremental cost would be potential Legacy buyers. The speed difference between an Excel and a Legacy is not that great and yet the interior space is very different. Owners accustomed to the Citation X or GIV/GV/Global Express probably would focus on the speed issue more. If you've been zipping around in a Beechjet then you would actually be impressed with the speed of the Legacy - it's all relative... In this case, we are talking about getting the most bang for the buck and the Legacy appears to be a great value - if you don't need to rush too much.

I have taken a look at a Legacy interior and I was pretty impressed - sure didn't resemble a regular EMB135/145 - take the normal bins out and put in some nice leather and wood and it is a very comfortable ride. Plus, it's got a great ramp presence - sure looks a lot bigger than some of the competition - and that's important to a lot of rich people who like to impress others with their big "toy." Legacy looks a lot bigger than a Citation X any day...

 

[GVFlyer]

Just as an aside - my dog is not in this fight - there is a difference in the design philosophy between airplanes like the Legacy and design built corporate jets like the Citation X. In 1995, when Embraer was looking to Gulfstream as a risk sharing partner to help them build their first regional jet, I took their Vice President for Production on a plant tour. When I had his head up in the wheel well on a G-IV looking at the 5/8 th's inch thick wing plank, he uttered, "We couldn't afford to build an airplane like this, we'd go out of business!" When I asked what he meant, he explained, "The Embraer line is built to deliver the lowest passenger seat mile cost possible." I took this to mean that they build an airplane to the minimums, that is to say that if a Gulfstream component is required to withstand 2.5 G's the company builds it to take 4.0; Embraer would engineer it to take 2.48 G's and allow for rounding because in order to remain competitive in a fierce market place, they cannot afford to carry around extra weight that isn't passengers. No company building corporate jets has to withstand this kind of market pressure when determing how sturdy their jet will be.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I have never experienced any kind of structural problem with an Embraer. I keep hearing all this talk about how weak it is, but it just isn't so. So maybe a Gulfstream can land on a carrier without breaking anything and the Legacy/ERJ would snap a spar. Over-engineering only burns gas. The Legacy/ERJ is far stronger than it needs to be, of that I am certain. It is a purpose-built airliner. Airliners take a pounding that business jets wouldn't dream of and must do it without going down for maintenance.

The Legacy is a great airplane in virtually every category and I am willing to bet (even though I may lose) that it will withstand a far higher cycle rate than a G-String will. This is not a dig on the Gulfstream by any means, but merely a plug for the Embraer. The airplane will go and go and go and go without breaking. I don't think many business jets can do what a Legacy can in that department.

Also, the thing is pretty advanced. LRUs are at its core. You break something and it can usually be fixed in a few minutes with just a quick swap or reset. I know of no other business jet (and very few airliners) that can claim that.

It's like comparing a Tomcat and a Hornet. The Tomcat goes faster when it isn't in the hangar.

The thought that the Legacy is made out of pot metal or tin is completely unfair. It is a strong airplane. Maybe the Gulfstream can pull a few more Gs but if you are honking an airplane like these that hard you have far worse problems.