Another PC-12 Question

[Stephen]

This topic was brought up in the General Forum, but I'd like to address it again here. A "fractional operator in the northeast" (as if we don't know the name) flies PC-12s with two pilots. The PC-12 is a single pilot aircraft. I doubt the first officers are flying just for the money - they are logging something. My question is, what? Does Alpha have a waiver from the FAA to allow logging SIC in the PC-12? Are the FOs logging the legs they are sole manipulator as PIC? (I'll be the captains are logging it all as PIC!)

I'd be interested in any insights from the inside. (And I'd love to join you!)

Stephen

 

[Jolimon]

A lot of the Citations are single pilot as were the King Air's that Travel Air operated. My understanding of the regs is that the company designated PIC (the captain) always meets the PIC logging requirements under part 1.1 (defination of PIC, "final authority and responsibility") Most operators swap legs so the co-pilot on every other leg becomes the "sole manipulator" of the flight controls and there for can log PIC during those times acting as sole manipulator for the aircraft as long as they are rated in category and class. Thats my understanding.

 

[metrofo]

I dont know why this issue seems so difficult for some folks to understand. THE FARS DO NOT PRECLUDE A PERSON FROM LOGGING SIC TIME JUST BECAUSE THE AIRCRAFT IS TYPE CERTIFIED FOR ONE PILOT. SIC is allowed when acting as SIC on aircraft requiring two pilots or when when the regs that the flight is being conducted under require two pilots. This could mean that anybody from the insurance company, FAA, corporation or 135 or 121 operator require two pilots. The only stipulation is that you need to have the required rating and medical certificate (and training) to log SIC. I also believe you need to have current checkrides on the appropriate timeperiods, but that might only apply to 135 or 121 ops and not to 91.

 

[modecontrol]

lighten up francis

 

[Stephen]

SIC is allowed when acting as SIC on aircraft requiring two pilots or when when the regs that the flight is being conducted under require two pilots.]

I wholeheartedly agree. You have nicely paraphrased 14 CFR § 61.51.f.2.

This could mean that anybody from the insurance company, FAA, corporation or 135 or 121 operator require two pilots.

This is where I disagree. A regulation is put forth by the FAA, such as 91.109, which requires a SIC for simulated instrument flight. Company op specs, which have been approved by the FAA, would also fit the bill. I cannot imagine that an insurance company requiring two pilots would make that operation loggable. I can imagine that a fractional operator could get the approval of the FAA for both of its pilots logging their time, but I haven't heard (yet) that that is the case.

 

[metrofo]

I believe I read a ruling some time ago (i.e. years ago) that a case was made for an individual flying SIC in an MU-2. The company required two pilots, even though the MU is a single pilot machine. Both crewmembers trained at flight safety together as a working crew. This MU-2 operated as a part 91 aircraft. I believe the decision in this instance was the person could log all time while not the "sole manipulator of the controls" as SIC. It has been atleast 7 years and I wouldnt even know where to begin to look for this now.
I will agree that the way the regs read literally, it appears that the only sure fire way to log SIC time is to be operating under 135 or 121, but I believe there is a case out there that could act as a precident if you were truely acting as a qualified SIC under 91. In all cases however, I will say that you better have the required trianing records to document your qualifications if you are going to make a legitimate claim.

 

[FracPilot]

SIC logging

SIC is allowed when acting as SIC on aircraft requiring two pilots or when when the regs that the flight is being conducted under require two pilots. This could mean that anybody from the insurance company, FAA, corporation or 135 or 121 operator require two pilots.

Sorry to bust your bubble there, slick, but just because the insurance company requires two pilots doesn't mean that it is legally loggable.

Insurance companies don't make the rules we must fly by...they just make the rules that we must follow in order to be insured. If an insurance company requires a PIC to have 10,000 hours, that doesn't mean that a pilot MUST have that much time to fly the airplane legally.

If the type certificate, the PIC's type rating, or the Ops Specs do not require an SIC, it is not legal to log such time.

 

[Jolimon]

I have to disagree with the insurance requirements. Insurance has nothing to do with logging of flight time. It is pretty clear under logging of SIC. Logging of SIC applies only to aircraft requiring two pilots. The discussion was based on weather or not a co-pilot on an aircraft requiring only one pilot can log PIC for the duration he is the sole manipulator. However, when 91 subpart K arrives the fractional operators will be required to have two pilots regardless of the aircraft. So the Pilatus, Piaggio, Kingair, and whatever else co-pilots will then be able to log SIC all the time.

 

[Stephen]

So, you can't log SIC in a PC-12 under part 91. Alpha pays pilots to fly as SIC in a PC-12 under part 91. What are you guys logging?

 

[Jolimon]

The co-pilots log only the time they physically at the controls. (sole manipulator) They log it as PIC. So unfortunately they are only able to log about 50% of their time in the airplane. Its all good experience though.