another expectation / suggestion thread

[Foobar]

I’d like to work for a regional airline in the next year. I know that sounds ambitious given my current times, but I think hiring will improve markedly after January.

I’ve also decided that unless the job is fun and I’m treated reasonably well I’d just assume go back to my old career, which is not terrifically fun, but I will be paid and treated very well. I figure two out of three is better than zero for three.

So I’ve defined my criteria as follows.

1) I have to be able to live while I’m being trained. I can not go to training for free and put myself up in a hotel and buy my own food for 6 weeks. I just don’t have that much cash on hand and the principal of it makes me mad!

2) I’m willing to take probationary pay the first year but I have to have a livable wage the second year. A livable wage to me is 30K a year or more.

3) Given the fact that I see lots of flying going to the regionals I have to look at this as a place where I could potentially stay for my career. While I don’t have dreams of making 250K a year (it would be nice) I’d expect captain pay to pretty decent and I think 75K a year is not wholly unrealistic for a small jet.

4) Finally there is work environment. Obviously pilots (especially junior ones) work holidays and weekends, but I’d like to go somewhere where management has some regard for quality of life. That means you get some scheduled days off, over time is allowed but not essentially “required” as it has been in non pilot corporate jobs I’ve had in the past. And if you ask to go to a funeral or a wedding once a year you aren’t give a near reprimand for having the nerve to ask.

Given all that, are my expectations way out of line? Obviously hiring could be worse next year and there is not much I could do about that, timing is everything and I can just hope mine works out ok. I expect to be at 1500 / 300 in June of next year give or take a little. I have a BA and a MS (that’s my backup plan) so my education is taken care of.

What regionals if any would meet that description?

 

[Wankel7]

Good questions....interested in the answers

Wankel

 

[Wankel7]

.

 

[de Pez]

You have created a very reasonable list of requirements to work for a regional airline. Unfortunately it is market driven, and currently in a downward cycle...Concessions and doomsday predictions seem to be the norm... Or that is what the management of many carriers would have you believe... However, much or the guilt lies with the pilots themselves, largely due to a lack of communication and consensus among ourselves, and an inability to determine a minimum acceptable compensation threshold for the industry. Very few have been willing to draw a line in the sand, with some notable exceptions, like CMR. Good for them. This should be the norm instead of an exception. In fact, I'm sure that the upper managemant at most companies get a chuckle out of the idiotic way that the industry has prostituted itself, perhaps making private bets about how much more they can trick the pilot groups into giving through whip-sawing and other divisive means, while they maintain their salaries and "golden parachutes." As long as someone will accept a job working for $16/hr, pay for training, and surviving in work conditions that they themselves say are dispicable, then there will be very little incentive for the airline to change. I can't think of one "regional" airline that currently meets all of your requirements, although perhaps some "majors" do....JB for example.

 

[Foobar]

Oh for heaven's sake, it is NOT FLAME BAIT. It is a reasonable question from someone who has never worked for an airline.

 

[350DRIVER]

I'll Bite..

Foo-

I think the questions that you have asked are dependant upon a few (possibly many) variables. Regional airlines are hiring present day and they will continue to do so for some time to come... When will they stop hiring.? I don't know but from what I have found out through research is that the hiring will remain steady for some time to come. I do not see Mesa, Chautauqua and others putting a stop the hiring anytime soon. They are growing, adding new equipment and quite a few of them are adding "new" routes that it is much more "economical" to use a RJ versus mainline equipment. I am not sure about all of your credentials by just looking at your profile but alot has to do with
"luck" for you just to get the interview.. I am a 135 captain, young 20's, quite abit of multi-engine turbine time, good bit of actual imc, cx, etc, etc, etc, and I have been 135 for just over 2.5 years and I just got my stuff from Mesa (finally). I never would have imagined that it would have taken this long but "luck" has alot to do with you just getting to the interview. The problem is not really about flight "time" and where or what you have done in the past. I know quite a few people that are now at Chautauqua that were hired right at 1000TT and not a lot of "multi" time at all.. They seem to look at the "lower time" pilots quite abit so you may want to submit a resume and give Rosa a call. I interviewed with them on June 10th and there was only one other 135 guy who was right around my age and he had over 2500TT and is a freight dog with quite abit of Baron time (all single pilot) and he was looked over as well for some reason. (what reason I have no idea). Neither him nor I was offered the position. The others applicants had far less time (right around 1000TT- with very little multi-),none were 135 either, all were CFI's.. Sooo why not get your stuff ready now and get it in.?? You have nothing to loose other than not getting that phone call.. Also network network and network since this also comes into play big time when it comes to selecting applicants for the interview.

I have to look back and laugh cause I was offered a job at Great Lakes a few years back when I had right around 450 hours total time and very little multi time at all so you never know... Obviously times have changed and the competition is more hungry but "flight time" really is not everything and what I have found out is that you may be surprised... Mesa has been able to put safe pilots in the right seat of 1900's and jets with right around 300 hours total time and they have proven time and time again that "total time" really means nothing.

I’d like to work for a regional airline in the next year. I know that sounds ambitious given my current times, but I think hiring will improve markedly after January.

Why not submit the resume.? You have nothing at all to loose. You may surprise yourself in the process and get the call.

I’ve also decided that unless the job is fun and I’m treated reasonably well I’d just assume go back to my old career, which is not terrifically fun, but I will be paid and treated very well. I figure two out of three is better than zero for three.

One must do what makes them happy.. If you want to fly then you will and you will find a way. If you are not overly happy of put the time in then you are not going to get very far in this industry.. Nothing will ever be handed to you on a silver platter in this industry, too many pilots out there that are "hungry" and that are just as qualified if not more so than you are.


If I were you, I would start getting the resumes sent out and do all in your power to make yourself that much more "marketable"..

any other specifics, feel free to pm me.

3 5 0

a little "luck" may be needed as well.

 

[bobbysamd]

Working conditions

My initial reaction, too, was flamebait, because it just doesn't work that way. I'll take it on Foobar's word that he is really soliciting opinion and does not want to be toasted.

Your concerns are not unreasonable, but are in large part unrealistic. If you really want a regional flying job you must be willing to start at the very bottom. This means that you impose no conditions at hire. They are the ones who will impose the conditions. If you are fortunate enough to get an interview, you must be as clear as possible with them that you will take anything that's offered, work any time, at any place, and for scale. Moreover, you must be emphatic that you are fully committed to the career. If you give any inkling at all that you would bolt at the first moment the job is no longer "fun," you will not be hired. Now, if you stay, top of scale for you may exceed your expectations. I understand that senior Comair captains make $90K.

Face it, starting regional pay is horrible. It was horrible when I was in the market several years ago, and it is still horrible. I knew it. Had I been hired, it would have been tough for me, even as a single person with my only dependent being my cat. But I would have found a way to tough it out. Second-year pay is better, but I do not believe that it will meet your requirements.

Finally, don't "expect" to get interviews. Every airline's H.R. files are loaded with thousands of resumes from qualified pilots who are vying for maybe fifty to a hundred new-hire positions each year - two hundred to three hundred in a good year - and I may be exaggerating that estimate. There is no shortage of applicants, and there is no pilot shortage. You are not owed interviews; interviews are a privilege granted to you by the airline. Treat it accordingly and act accordingly.

Finally, even if interviewing picks up precipitously, as you think it will, I think you will need far more than 1500/300 to be competitive. 1500 total might be adequate, but you'll need at least 500 of multi, and your ATP. I see people on the board saying one needs 3000/1000.

Good luck with your plans.

 

[Timebuilder]

If you really want a regional flying job you must be willing to start at the very bottom. This means that you impose no conditions at hire. They are the ones who will impose the conditions.

I think this one idea from Bobby is key.

The hiring at regionals, whether it continues for another six months, or goes on for three more years (at some point, it is no longer economically valid to continue to expand) is not a situation where you have any power, per se. It is a buyer's, or in this case, a hirers market.

Sure, send out those resumes. There is nothing that says you may not end up in the right place at the right time.

1) I have to be able to live while I’m being trained. I can not go to training for free and put myself up in a hotel and buy my own food for 6 weeks. I just don’t have that much cash on hand and the principal of it makes me mad!

Your alternative is to live with a relative in that location or find a crash pad. You will find a lot of how you are treated as a new regional hire will "make you mad".

2) I’m willing to take probationary pay the first year but I have to have a livable wage the second year. A livable wage to me is 30K a year or more.

I can't name a regional that will pay you 30k the second year, but i'm no expert. Sometimes you can find this info on the web, but at first blush I'd say 22 to 24k the second year. Just a guess.

3) Given the fact that I see lots of flying going to the regionals I have to look at this as a place where I could potentially stay for my career. While I don’t have dreams of making 250K a year (it would be nice) I’d expect captain pay to pretty decent and I think 75K a year is not wholly unrealistic for a small jet.

See previous answer. I'd expect less in this environment, but I'm sure you can find a carrier or two where that is possible. However, others know where the good pay is located, and they are flocking to those carriers right now, and have been for a while.

4) Finally there is work environment. Obviously pilots (especially junior ones) work holidays and weekends, but I’d like to go somewhere where management has some regard for quality of life. That means you get some scheduled days off, over time is allowed but not essentially “required” as it has been in non pilot corporate jobs I’ve had in the past. And if you ask to go to a funeral or a wedding once a year you aren’t give a near reprimand for having the nerve to ask.

Sounds like you mean a good job, as oposed to a typical job. Talk to some people at airports who fly for the company you'd like to work for, and get the straight poop.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

 

[N2264J]

I’d like to work for a regional airline in the next year...Given all that, are my expectations way out of line?

You've got to love flying.

You've got to just love it.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

No, not unreasonable...many "regional" airlines meet those criteria.

As far as pay, a rule of thumb is to take your hourly wage, mulitply by 1000, and that will be a ballpark figure for your yearly salary.

 

[Publishers]

standards

The bottom line to this is that you set your personal standards, not us and not the employer.

If you can find someone to meet them great.

Many years ago, I was asked why I never hired college students straight out of school. The answer was because they thought they knew what things were like, thought they knew how things should be, and generally ended up thinking that this place was screwed up but certainly the others would be better.

To cut to the end senario, if I hired someone who had some other jobs and now was married and trying to get established with a home etc, I could hire them and they knew that they did not know what things were like but knew that they were not better everywhere else and now with some responsibilities, they were gaining appreciation for what things were important and what not.

 

[nimtz]

Sounds like you shouldn't submit a resume to Mesa...

 

[Typhoon1244]

...or Great Lakes...

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

Mesa has been able to put safe pilots in the right seat of 1900's and jets with right around 300 hours total time and they have proven time and time again that "total time" really means nothing.

Everyone's responses have been great until I read this little turd. You know I have had to declare an emergency four times in my career. First in 1900 after being hit by lightning and my tubes and radio's went TU in imc. Radios came back and so did the tubes after landing. Thank god we were able to get in on a ndb appraoch with the RMI. Second in a dc9 when I had to shut down the left engine after takeoff because the linkage to the fuel control unit separated and the engine was stuck at takeoff power. Third on a dc9 when I blew a tire on rotation and it took out the inboard four feet of the flap and was ingested into the engine. On top of all that all gear indications including the viewer indicated the gear was not down and locked. Fourth when a passenger found glass in her food and decided the best response was to eat it.

Now I don't know how I would have been able to deal with these situations if I was one of these 300 hour wonders. I felt very lucky that I had a couple thousand hours at the point of my first emergency in the 1900. No way could a 300 hour pilot deal with the third emergency. Just imagine the number of checklists for failed flaps, engine still running but not indicating properly, unsafe gear indication, landing with at least one tire blown with no real way of determining if the other was ok. The longest runway available within 90 miles was 7500 long. Plenty long but with no flaps I would have been much more comfortable with 9000. To make everthing more better all this was done with a fed onboard. I was an FO on all of these and the Captain did most of the flying but the flying part was the easliest.

 

[mar]

The Seat Warmers

Ivan--I don't know you're total time (6969?) but I heard a stat that says the professional pilot encounters a serious emergency every 2000 hours or so.

So I'd say you're probably about cashed out!

At any rate, I'm pretty much with you on the 300-hour-wonders, but I just wanted to let you know that you may have opened a can of worms.

--European airlines have 300 hour copilots
--Military pilots are signed off with about the same
--I've met some real talented low-time pilots
--I've flown with some high-time losers

Naturally, personal qualities and training programs make a big difference but, yeah, generally I agree, 300 hours of 172 time ain't gonna be that much help in a dark cockpit.

I hope the next 2000 are smooth and clear.

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

If that is true then I'm about 1 emergency ahead of schedule. I never said any 300 hour pilot couldn't do a good job but take the average 4000 hour pilot and the average 300 hour pilot and let's see the outcome.

Actually all of these emergencies happened within about 1000 hours of each other and I haven't had any in the last 2500. Kind of like people die in three's. I guess I'm that way with emergencies. I have a few friends that had a short spurt also.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I don't dispute that experience builds competence (...in most people).

However, let's not forget that the crews of the Eastern L-1011 in the Everglades, the Delta '1011 in Dallas, the KLM 747 in Tenerife, the United DC-8 at Portland, the American 757 in Cali, etc, etc...they were all high-time experienced pilots. That didn't stop them from making some pretty spectacular and memorable mistakes.

Originally posted by 350DRIVER
..."total time" really means nothing.

I don't know if I completely agree with that. However, it's been my experience that, for the most part, by the time F/O's have been flying the line for a year, you can't tell the difference between a guy who got hired at 300 hours versus 3,000 hours.

 

[chperplt]

I don't know if I completely agree with that. However, it's been my experience that, for the most part, by the time F/O's have been flying the line for a year, you can't tell the difference between a guy who got hired at 300 hours versus 3,000 hours.

That may be the case, but for most of that first year, the captain is flying single pilot. I fly with the newest class of 300 hour airline pilots and see it every day.

 

[Typhoon1244]

That may be the case, but for most of that first year, the captain is flying single pilot. I fly with the newest class of 300 hour airline pilots and see it every day.

In most cases, yeah. A lot of it depends on the quality of the company's training department, too. I've had very little trouble with 300-hour "Candlers." I know a guy who's about to pull his hair out over some of his 300-hour "Windy Cities!"

 

[bobbysamd]

How did this thread change?

. . . from a discussion on regional airline pilot hiring concerns to MAPD grads.

I worked there. The program works and you should look at it this way. As Mar noted, European airlines have 300-hour FOs. Maybe a difference between them and Mesa are that these pilots are hand-picked and are already airline employees whom the company trains at its expense. In any event, MAPD students are imbued from the beginning in Mesa procedures. Even though they know Mesa, they still have to go through Mesa ground school and sim, and must take a 121 ride (when I was there, they took at 135 ride and received a 135 letter as undergrads as part of their turbine lab).

At that point they go on the line at 300 hours. 300 hours, yes, but after a year they will have 1300 hours, with 1000 of that being 121 turbine multi time. In other words, they may be green, but they've had good training and acquire experience quickly. And, don't forget, they are flying with a, hopefully, experienced captain.

I like the program. Don't like the company, though, but that's something for another discussion.

Now, going back to the original discussion, the long and short of regional hiring is to get the job you must genuflect to anything they say. Beggars can't be choosers, and when you want a regional airline job you are a beggar.