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And why is foreign ownership bad...

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I think it's probably inevitable. And I don't like it one bit either.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/ma...&grid=&xml=/money/2008/05/22/bcnairline12.xml

Oil price surge may trigger truly open transatlantic skies


By Alistair Osborne in Houston
Last Updated: 11:16am BST 22/05/2008


High level politics and the soaring oil price have combined to create the most positive backdrop yet for EU-US talks focused on the abolition of laws preventing transatlantic airline takeovers, a senior British Airways executive has said.

John Wood, BA's executive vice-president of external relations, said he was encouraged by two sets of negotiations last week that could revolutionise the aviation industry within the next few years. "In the medium-term, I am cautiously optimistic," he said.
bcnba.jpg
British Airways is encouraged by progress EU and US negotiators met last week in Ljubljana, Slovenia, for their first discussions on the second phase of "open skies", the deal struck last year that liberalised flying rights between the two regions.

The first phase deal did nothing, however, to end anachronistic ownership laws limiting EU carriers to 25pc of the voting rights and 49pc of the equity in their American counterparts. US airlines are limited to 49pc of both in EU carriers.

Such rules block the transatlantic takeovers, and accompanying cost-cutting, that the industry is crying out for now that oil has rocketed to $135 a barrel - a level at which virtually no airline can make a profit.
While Mr Wood admitted that the aviation talks in Slovenia ended, as expected, with little concrete progress, he pointed to a crucial breakthrough at more high-level discussions a few days earlier in Brussels.
This was at the second meeting of the Transatlantic Economic Council (TEC), set up in April 2007 by President Bush, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso.

The TEC, whose European delegates include trade commissioner Peter Mandelson, was established to secure barrier-free trade between the EU and the US - including in aviation.
On May 13, the TEC issued an "EU-US Open Investment Statement", which Mr Wood said would "put top-down pressure on negotiations over an aviation agreement".
The joint-statement from the TEC explicitly states that: "An open economy, including an open international investment regime, is indispensable to fostering sustainable economic growth...Countries should avoid new restrictions and strive to eliminate existing restrictions."
Mr Wood said the US special envoy to the EU, Boyden Gray, opened the Slovenia aviation talks with reference to the TEC statement.
"One of the things aviation suffered from is that it has always been done in a black box," Mr Wood said. "That has hindered our ability to make progress. But the EU and US have now made a commitment to open investment."
He said this extended to all industries, though acknowledged there were some restrictions around defence.
Mr Wood said such a political context was "helpful" as the EU presses the US to create a full-blown open aviation area, including access to the American domestic market. Many observers see the US resistance as a protectionist measure to prevent takeovers of US carriers, such as United and Continental, by stronger European airlines.
As part of last year's "open skies" deal, the EU negotiated an opt-out for any member state. This allows an EU member to claw back flying rights granted to Washington, such as access to Heathrow, unless the US liberalises its market by 2010.
"It's a nuclear button, but it's there to be pressed as a final resort," Mr Wood said.
He acknowledged the US negotiating team was still a long way from agreeing full-blown liberalisation, instead bogging down the Slovenia talks on sideshows such as the lack of access for US carriers to Milan's Linate airport.
However, he believed that after the US election, there would be growing pressure on the American side for a change. "EU carriers want it and, with oil at $130, I think we are going to see US airlines saying we really have got to get out of the dark ages," he said. "That's going to flush out the opponents, who are mainly labour - the unions. The unions are resisting, but they are also resisting the economic benefits of a properly liberalised market."
 
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So you can't comprehend it....so it is not going to happen.....

got it....

You are so sure that it will happen, so it must......

got it....


Have any of the EU airlines been over run with cheap Eastern European labor?

You know, you guys are right. There is obviously plenty of financing available for the airlines in the US right now to help them through the down turn.
 
Because we are the cheapest, BY FAR...

Airbus designs its jets so third world country citizens can fly them. it increases sales.

Take a guy who is plowing the fields in S. America, Africa or Asia who is making $3,000 a year and ask him if he wants to make 15K and if he wants to access the US economy to buy goods and services.

What do you think he'll say?


Yes... we have to worry about the short term and long term....
 
You are so sure that it will happen, so it must......

got it....

Nope... However there are many indications that we are going that way... my intent... awareness... Nothing worse than a bunch of cry baby pilots waking up in the morning only to find their jobs are gone, all while they say.. "how did this happen" and "ALPA sucks"


Have any of the EU airlines been over run with cheap Eastern European labor?

Actually one of the problems is many EU airlines and transnational airlines want to set up flight operations in Old East Bloc Euro countries.

Let's take it a step further... What is to stop David Neeleman from helping jB set up dispatch and mx in Brazil. Sure he doesn't work there, but that doesn't mean he can't represent jB.

What is to prevent DAL from setting up, mx, dx and scheduling in 3rd world countries.

You know, you guys are right. There is obviously plenty of financing available for the airlines in the US right now to help them through the down turn.

Foreign ownership means foreign control which means foreign jobs. What is to prevent a foreign company from flying in third world pilots to fly a domestic 6 day trip?

The camels nose under the tent in all this is.... the first lose for us is the widebody transoceanic flying. that will be done by foreigners..

The foreign carriers will use their US surrogates to petition the US gov't for work visas. A win win for all [except pilots] as American unions will be even more watered down.

All of this information is out there....
 
Have you ever heard Mexicana on the radio? Could you imagin that everywhere?
I'm not so sure I haven't heard them flying for the regionals already! Are the regionals hiring right off the boat?
 
Airplanes should be as easy to fly as possible.

The pilots job is to have sound judgment and a look at the "big picture". Pushing 10 buttons vs. 100 buttons is just window dressing.

How pushing 12 buttons vs. 1 button for a fire systems test makes anyone a superior pilot is beyond me. (for example)
 
Take a guy who is plowing the fields in S. America, Africa or Asia who is making $3,000 a year and ask him if he wants to make 15K and if he wants to access the US economy to buy goods and services.

The peasants farming the fields are now suddenly qualified airline pilots? Wow, I am glad you think our job is so easy and unskilled.

What is to prevent DAL from setting up, mx, dx and scheduling in 3rd world countries.

What is to stop them from doing it now? If they mx, dx, and scheduling don't have a CBA, there is nothing stopping them from doing it now when they are 100% American owned.

Actually one of the problems is many EU airlines and transnational airlines want to set up flight operations in Old East Bloc Euro countries.

Which airlines would that be Rez. Please list them for me.

The foreign carriers will use their US surrogates to petition the US gov't for work visas. A win win for all [except pilots] as American unions will be even more watered down.

Actually, I would think that the European pilots would be worried that their flying would be outsourced. If they outsourced their flying to the US and paid in Dollars, they would be saving a ton of money.

What was stopping VA or Skybus from getting work visa's for the peasants working the fields in 3rd world countries to become pilots when they started operations? I don't know of any law that says a US airline must employ only US pilots.

I find it comical that you are so paranoid about have a foreign owner shipping your job overseas when the American owners would do it in a heartbeat if they could.
 
Have any of the EU airlines been over run with cheap Eastern European labor?

Not a single one.....and these airlines are hiring 250 hours guys straight out of integrated programs.

The problem is that no one from the Eastern European countries has the $165,000 cost of admission.

....and anyone who does WON'T work for $35,000 in their first year.

It's really funny listening to a rabid proponent of an organization that has presided over the decline of American pilot pay, benefits and QOL such that it has become very nearly the lowest in the world.
 
Actually one of the problems is many EU airlines and transnational airlines want to set up flight operations in Old East Bloc Euro countries. Which airlines would that be Rez. Please list them for me.

Air Berlin has bases and pilots from the east. They have no work rules. A German friend used to fly for them. They also have a real time reporting system on board, known as "the rat". The company can access real time info such as angle of attack on takeoff (ie, did you over rotate?). One of his classmates was fired for that very offense. That is what Rez is sounding the alarm about. I seriously doubt that any politician would build the kind of protection into "open skies" that would protect you from this type of intrusive technology. I am not the greatest ALPA supporter, but in this case, they have legitimate concerns.
 

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