And why is foreign ownership bad...

[AC560]

Airbus designs its jets so third world country citizens can fly them. it increases sales.

Fascinating

 

[Soverytired]

Airplanes should be as easy to fly as possible.

The pilots job is to have sound judgment and a look at the "big picture". Pushing 10 buttons vs. 100 buttons is just window dressing.

How pushing 12 buttons vs. 1 button for a fire systems test makes anyone a superior pilot is beyond me. (for example)

 

[d328pilot]

Take a guy who is plowing the fields in S. America, Africa or Asia who is making $3,000 a year and ask him if he wants to make 15K and if he wants to access the US economy to buy goods and services.

The peasants farming the fields are now suddenly qualified airline pilots? Wow, I am glad you think our job is so easy and unskilled.

What is to prevent DAL from setting up, mx, dx and scheduling in 3rd world countries.

What is to stop them from doing it now? If they mx, dx, and scheduling don't have a CBA, there is nothing stopping them from doing it now when they are 100% American owned.

Actually one of the problems is many EU airlines and transnational airlines want to set up flight operations in Old East Bloc Euro countries.

Which airlines would that be Rez. Please list them for me.

The foreign carriers will use their US surrogates to petition the US gov't for work visas. A win win for all [except pilots] as American unions will be even more watered down.

Actually, I would think that the European pilots would be worried that their flying would be outsourced. If they outsourced their flying to the US and paid in Dollars, they would be saving a ton of money.

What was stopping VA or Skybus from getting work visa's for the peasants working the fields in 3rd world countries to become pilots when they started operations? I don't know of any law that says a US airline must employ only US pilots.

I find it comical that you are so paranoid about have a foreign owner shipping your job overseas when the American owners would do it in a heartbeat if they could.

 

[sqwkvfr]

Have any of the EU airlines been over run with cheap Eastern European labor?

Not a single one.....and these airlines are hiring 250 hours guys straight out of integrated programs.

The problem is that no one from the Eastern European countries has the $165,000 cost of admission.

....and anyone who does WON'T work for $35,000 in their first year.

It's really funny listening to a rabid proponent of an organization that has presided over the decline of American pilot pay, benefits and QOL such that it has become very nearly the lowest in the world.

 

[doh]

Actually one of the problems is many EU airlines and transnational airlines want to set up flight operations in Old East Bloc Euro countries. Which airlines would that be Rez. Please list them for me.

Air Berlin has bases and pilots from the east. They have no work rules. A German friend used to fly for them. They also have a real time reporting system on board, known as "the rat". The company can access real time info such as angle of attack on takeoff (ie, did you over rotate?). One of his classmates was fired for that very offense. That is what Rez is sounding the alarm about. I seriously doubt that any politician would build the kind of protection into "open skies" that would protect you from this type of intrusive technology. I am not the greatest ALPA supporter, but in this case, they have legitimate concerns.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The peasants farming the fields are now suddenly qualified airline pilots? Wow, I am glad you think our job is so easy and unskilled.

Its called ab initio training and its the way non US airlines train their pilots.

This is what the MPL license is all about. A cheaper and even more efficient way to get an avg. citizen into the cockpit of a widebody jet.

The plan is to get cheap labor quickly...

What is to stop them from doing it now? If they mx, dx, and scheduling don't have a CBA, there is nothing stopping them from doing it now when they are 100% American owned.

Great point. What has stopped other companies from sending labor jobs overseas. Do you think CEO's view pilot labor different than say an Indian call center?

Which airlines would that be Rez. Please list them for me.

Ryan Airlines.

They are a very real threat. Ryan makes it money selling ancillary services such as cost per luggage (AMR), wheelchair services, and products in flight. The money made is not from flying the jet. So Ryan doesn't value its pilots because the pilots aren't the real revenue generators...

Ryan Air has operating certificates and crew bases in different countries... the big concern: what labor law applies? the country where the op cert. is or the crew base...

Finally, Ryan Air, not Southwest is the model that is being copies globally.

Actually, I would think that the European pilots would be worried that their flying would be outsourced. If they outsourced their flying to the US and paid in Dollars, they would be saving a ton of money.

The EU pilots are concerned. For example, the BA pilots and BA's new airline Open Skies.

What was stopping VA or Skybus from getting work visa's for the peasants working the fields in 3rd world countries to become pilots when they started operations? I don't know of any law that says a US airline must employ only US pilots.

Well Skybus no longer operates, but you knew that...

Good point on the visas.... What is to stop a company from politicking gov't to give work and resident permits to foreign workers? Its just a piece of legislation away...

Do you back the ALPA PAC? cause I can assure you that companies back their PAC's so they can run this legislation.

I find it comical that you are so paranoid about have a foreign owner shipping your job overseas when the American owners would do it in a heartbeat if they could.

I don't make this stuff up. I am just reporting the possibilities as I have learned them.

Consider this...:

Regulators grant SkyTeam trans-Atlantic antitrust immunity
Thursday May 22, 10:52 pm ET Federal regulators grant Northwest and SkyTeam partners trans-Atlantic antitrust immunity

EAGAN, Minn. (AP) -- The U.S. Department of Transportation granted trans-Atlantic antitrust immunity Thursday for Northwest Airlines and five of its SkyTeam alliance partners: Delta, Air France, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, Alitalia and CSA Czech Airlines.
The expanded immunity makes it easier for the six airlines to work together and share profits on trans-Atlantic flights. The federal agency granted preliminary approval in April.
To win antitrust approval, Eagan-based Northwest Airlines Corp. and Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc. had to promise to coordinate only on trans-Atlantic operations. They're still expected to compete everywhere else pending completion of Delta's acquisition of Northwest in a stock-swap deal announced last month that would create the world's largest carrier.
"This enhanced ability to coordinate among the carriers will provide a more positive, seamless experience for our customers with single-ticketing, seamless baggage handling, and greater customer ease and convenience," Northwest President and CEO Doug Steenland said in a statement. "It is also good news in light of skyrocketing fuel costs." Steenland said the Transportation Department's final order will make the combined Northwest-Delta a more effective competitor.

The concern here is AF/KLM takes over the Transoceanic flying. A precedence we don't want set.

AF/KLM says to NWA/DAL... you can bring the asia market to the US and your narrowbodies feed our KLM/AF widebody jets in the US and we'll take it from there and do ALL the transatlantic flying... as long as the NWA/DAL brand gets their agreed share of the ticket cost, do you think Steenland and Anderson care if American Pilots fly it?


I am not saying all of this will happen? However, the maritime industry doesn't look too good for us....

The information is out there...

 

[sqwkvfr]

Ryan Airlines.

They are a very real threat. Ryan makes it money selling ancillary services such as cost per luggage (AMR), wheelchair services, and products in flight. The money made is not from flying the jet. So Ryan doesn't value its pilots because the pilots aren't the real revenue generators...

Ryan Air has operating certificates and crew bases in different countries... the big concern: what labor law applies? the country where the op cert. is or the crew base...

Finally, Ryan Air, not Southwest is the model that is being copies globally.

This is just a bunch of crap. I know about two dozen RyanAir pilots....I've taught them how to fly.

The first year is a little tough.....they have to pay for their own type, buy their own uniforms and work pretty hard, but when that's over, RyanAir pilots are very well rewarded for their efforts.

....far better than than US Airlines.

Also, RyanAir is becoming a place to gain some experience before moving on to a higher paying airline....a la, BA, BMI, DHL, Virgin, EasyJet, Cathay or Emirates.

Sound familiar?

ALPA needs to figure out how to get on top of foreign ownership and use it to its advantage. Just saying "no" while it happens is not enough.

I mean, common guys, ALPA is still fighting for assembly line jobs in a fully robotic world. It's time to get with the program and embrace the good that foreign ownership can do for this industry.

Oh, and if you think that it's gonna be cheaper to send a student through the MCL integrated courses than it does today, I've some ocean-front property near Gila Bend that I'd like to offer you an incredible price on.

That's in Arizona.

 

[superfly]

competition? Every other month their was a new Airline du jour popping up, with their introductory airfares. All these new airlines sucked the life out of the legacy carriers who could only cut service and employees to try and compete. Americans wanted 39.00 airfares? well they got em. Now we will all pay. You are a pilot, you know how much it costs to run an airplane. If the seats don't pay that cost, there is something rotten going on. The last thing we need is more subsidized "competition"

Us Airlines are like fast food, foreign carriers (like Japan or Korean) actually have service and get a premium for such service. Maybe some first class competition is needed to raise the bar of domestic travel.

If I want to pay more and get less, I'll move to NY!

 

[Dumb Pilot]

The worst example of a bad job in Europe that anybody can come up with (Ryan) , pays its pilots over $100,000 Euros per year. Go figure how that works

 

[Soverytired]

The worst example of a bad job in Europe that anybody can come up with (Ryan) , pays its pilots over $100,000 Euros per year. Go figure how that works

No kidding. Direct from the RyanAir website:


Captains

Up to £100,000 +($198k USD)
​

Up to €130,000 + ($205k USD)
​

First Officers (1,500 hrs)

Up to £70,000 +($139k USD)
​

Up to €80,000 +($126k USD)
​

Home every night, domiciles all over Europe. That's pay in pounds/Euros. Far better than getting locked into a foreign contract that locks you into a multi-year contract being paid in the increasingly devalued dollar.

5 days on / 4 days off. Holy S!!!. I've been on them, and they're the very definition of the "cattle car". But man, they sure know how to make money.



http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/about.php?page=Jobs&sec=careers&ref=app_benefits

 

[d328pilot]

Look at the foreign owned companies Emirates and Cathay. They paid their pilots an extra month's salary as a bonus. Even when the airlines were making money, when is the last time American management did that? Not all foreign management is interested in the cheapest way of doing things. Granted, I am only working for my first overseas company, but when we complained about our hotel in training the company went out and got us all furnished apartments in Tokyo. That ain't exactly a good way to save money either. You might enjoy working for a foreign owner, some of them actually care about their employees and there is only 1 US carrier that can say that (SWA).

 

[waveflyer]

Irony is spelled: the 250 hour ab initio pilot has more pride and thinks he has more value than many of us who have slugged it out in the trenches for peanuts. I'm not buying the fear either.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Irony is spelled: the 250 hour ab initio pilot has more pride and thinks he has more value than many of us who have slugged it out in the trenches for peanuts. I'm not buying the fear either.

No, you should be very afraid of foreign ownership very, very afraid. I'm afraid that foreign companies will fill the international market with cheap American labor and bring the International salary levels down.:laugh:

 

[Gillegan]

What I see is the old union paradigm being advanced ad nauseum - ONLY the unions are capable of stemming the excesses of cutthroat capitalism. Some of the concerns expressed are quite valid; abuse of DFDR data, insufficient training etc.. I just don't think that unions or limits on foreign ownership are the only way to address these concerns. In fact, a vibrant and competent regulator (I know, but I can dream can't I?) should be doing a lot of this stuff.

Whether we like it or not, it's a global economy and it's getting more global every day. The winners will be the ones who are going to jump in aggressively and take advantage of the new opportunities while the losers will stay mired in their mid twentieth century mindsets.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Time limit set on foreign pilots in India’s airlines

According to a report in the Times of India, the country’s aviation ministry has specified that Indian carriers can employ an overseas pilot “up to a time limit of four years or July 31, 2010 whichever is earlier”. For a foreign pilot to obtain an extension after that time limit then the matter would have to be referred by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) to the ministry. The report quoted the DGCA’s deputy Director General A.K.Sharan “While sending proposals for continued utilization of foreign pilots, airlines should justify their demand for new aircraft can’t be fulfilled from the present Indian market despite their efforts in recruiting and training of Indian pilots”.
Presently nearly 1,000 pilots employed by Indian airlines are from outside the country.

India wants Indian pilots.

And when other foreign carriers buy controlling % of US airlines do you think they will want to hire US pilots or their own Nationals?