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And why is foreign ownership bad...

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I think it's probably inevitable. And I don't like it one bit either.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/ma...&grid=&xml=/money/2008/05/22/bcnairline12.xml

Oil price surge may trigger truly open transatlantic skies


By Alistair Osborne in Houston
Last Updated: 11:16am BST 22/05/2008


High level politics and the soaring oil price have combined to create the most positive backdrop yet for EU-US talks focused on the abolition of laws preventing transatlantic airline takeovers, a senior British Airways executive has said.

John Wood, BA's executive vice-president of external relations, said he was encouraged by two sets of negotiations last week that could revolutionise the aviation industry within the next few years. "In the medium-term, I am cautiously optimistic," he said.
bcnba.jpg
British Airways is encouraged by progress EU and US negotiators met last week in Ljubljana, Slovenia, for their first discussions on the second phase of "open skies", the deal struck last year that liberalised flying rights between the two regions.

The first phase deal did nothing, however, to end anachronistic ownership laws limiting EU carriers to 25pc of the voting rights and 49pc of the equity in their American counterparts. US airlines are limited to 49pc of both in EU carriers.

Such rules block the transatlantic takeovers, and accompanying cost-cutting, that the industry is crying out for now that oil has rocketed to $135 a barrel - a level at which virtually no airline can make a profit.
While Mr Wood admitted that the aviation talks in Slovenia ended, as expected, with little concrete progress, he pointed to a crucial breakthrough at more high-level discussions a few days earlier in Brussels.
This was at the second meeting of the Transatlantic Economic Council (TEC), set up in April 2007 by President Bush, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso.

The TEC, whose European delegates include trade commissioner Peter Mandelson, was established to secure barrier-free trade between the EU and the US - including in aviation.
On May 13, the TEC issued an "EU-US Open Investment Statement", which Mr Wood said would "put top-down pressure on negotiations over an aviation agreement".
The joint-statement from the TEC explicitly states that: "An open economy, including an open international investment regime, is indispensable to fostering sustainable economic growth...Countries should avoid new restrictions and strive to eliminate existing restrictions."
Mr Wood said the US special envoy to the EU, Boyden Gray, opened the Slovenia aviation talks with reference to the TEC statement.
"One of the things aviation suffered from is that it has always been done in a black box," Mr Wood said. "That has hindered our ability to make progress. But the EU and US have now made a commitment to open investment."
He said this extended to all industries, though acknowledged there were some restrictions around defence.
Mr Wood said such a political context was "helpful" as the EU presses the US to create a full-blown open aviation area, including access to the American domestic market. Many observers see the US resistance as a protectionist measure to prevent takeovers of US carriers, such as United and Continental, by stronger European airlines.
As part of last year's "open skies" deal, the EU negotiated an opt-out for any member state. This allows an EU member to claw back flying rights granted to Washington, such as access to Heathrow, unless the US liberalises its market by 2010.
"It's a nuclear button, but it's there to be pressed as a final resort," Mr Wood said.
He acknowledged the US negotiating team was still a long way from agreeing full-blown liberalisation, instead bogging down the Slovenia talks on sideshows such as the lack of access for US carriers to Milan's Linate airport.
However, he believed that after the US election, there would be growing pressure on the American side for a change. "EU carriers want it and, with oil at $130, I think we are going to see US airlines saying we really have got to get out of the dark ages," he said. "That's going to flush out the opponents, who are mainly labour - the unions. The unions are resisting, but they are also resisting the economic benefits of a properly liberalised market."
 
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So you can't comprehend it....so it is not going to happen.....

got it....

You are so sure that it will happen, so it must......

got it....


Have any of the EU airlines been over run with cheap Eastern European labor?

You know, you guys are right. There is obviously plenty of financing available for the airlines in the US right now to help them through the down turn.
 
Because we are the cheapest, BY FAR...

Airbus designs its jets so third world country citizens can fly them. it increases sales.

Take a guy who is plowing the fields in S. America, Africa or Asia who is making $3,000 a year and ask him if he wants to make 15K and if he wants to access the US economy to buy goods and services.

What do you think he'll say?


Yes... we have to worry about the short term and long term....
 
You are so sure that it will happen, so it must......

got it....

Nope... However there are many indications that we are going that way... my intent... awareness... Nothing worse than a bunch of cry baby pilots waking up in the morning only to find their jobs are gone, all while they say.. "how did this happen" and "ALPA sucks"


Have any of the EU airlines been over run with cheap Eastern European labor?

Actually one of the problems is many EU airlines and transnational airlines want to set up flight operations in Old East Bloc Euro countries.

Let's take it a step further... What is to stop David Neeleman from helping jB set up dispatch and mx in Brazil. Sure he doesn't work there, but that doesn't mean he can't represent jB.

What is to prevent DAL from setting up, mx, dx and scheduling in 3rd world countries.

You know, you guys are right. There is obviously plenty of financing available for the airlines in the US right now to help them through the down turn.

Foreign ownership means foreign control which means foreign jobs. What is to prevent a foreign company from flying in third world pilots to fly a domestic 6 day trip?

The camels nose under the tent in all this is.... the first lose for us is the widebody transoceanic flying. that will be done by foreigners..

The foreign carriers will use their US surrogates to petition the US gov't for work visas. A win win for all [except pilots] as American unions will be even more watered down.

All of this information is out there....
 
Have you ever heard Mexicana on the radio? Could you imagin that everywhere?
I'm not so sure I haven't heard them flying for the regionals already! Are the regionals hiring right off the boat?
 
Airplanes should be as easy to fly as possible.

The pilots job is to have sound judgment and a look at the "big picture". Pushing 10 buttons vs. 100 buttons is just window dressing.

How pushing 12 buttons vs. 1 button for a fire systems test makes anyone a superior pilot is beyond me. (for example)
 
Take a guy who is plowing the fields in S. America, Africa or Asia who is making $3,000 a year and ask him if he wants to make 15K and if he wants to access the US economy to buy goods and services.

The peasants farming the fields are now suddenly qualified airline pilots? Wow, I am glad you think our job is so easy and unskilled.

What is to prevent DAL from setting up, mx, dx and scheduling in 3rd world countries.

What is to stop them from doing it now? If they mx, dx, and scheduling don't have a CBA, there is nothing stopping them from doing it now when they are 100% American owned.

Actually one of the problems is many EU airlines and transnational airlines want to set up flight operations in Old East Bloc Euro countries.

Which airlines would that be Rez. Please list them for me.

The foreign carriers will use their US surrogates to petition the US gov't for work visas. A win win for all [except pilots] as American unions will be even more watered down.

Actually, I would think that the European pilots would be worried that their flying would be outsourced. If they outsourced their flying to the US and paid in Dollars, they would be saving a ton of money.

What was stopping VA or Skybus from getting work visa's for the peasants working the fields in 3rd world countries to become pilots when they started operations? I don't know of any law that says a US airline must employ only US pilots.

I find it comical that you are so paranoid about have a foreign owner shipping your job overseas when the American owners would do it in a heartbeat if they could.
 
Have any of the EU airlines been over run with cheap Eastern European labor?

Not a single one.....and these airlines are hiring 250 hours guys straight out of integrated programs.

The problem is that no one from the Eastern European countries has the $165,000 cost of admission.

....and anyone who does WON'T work for $35,000 in their first year.

It's really funny listening to a rabid proponent of an organization that has presided over the decline of American pilot pay, benefits and QOL such that it has become very nearly the lowest in the world.
 
Actually one of the problems is many EU airlines and transnational airlines want to set up flight operations in Old East Bloc Euro countries. Which airlines would that be Rez. Please list them for me.

Air Berlin has bases and pilots from the east. They have no work rules. A German friend used to fly for them. They also have a real time reporting system on board, known as "the rat". The company can access real time info such as angle of attack on takeoff (ie, did you over rotate?). One of his classmates was fired for that very offense. That is what Rez is sounding the alarm about. I seriously doubt that any politician would build the kind of protection into "open skies" that would protect you from this type of intrusive technology. I am not the greatest ALPA supporter, but in this case, they have legitimate concerns.
 
The peasants farming the fields are now suddenly qualified airline pilots? Wow, I am glad you think our job is so easy and unskilled.

Its called ab initio training and its the way non US airlines train their pilots.

This is what the MPL license is all about. A cheaper and even more efficient way to get an avg. citizen into the cockpit of a widebody jet.

The plan is to get cheap labor quickly...



What is to stop them from doing it now? If they mx, dx, and scheduling don't have a CBA, there is nothing stopping them from doing it now when they are 100% American owned.

Great point. What has stopped other companies from sending labor jobs overseas. Do you think CEO's view pilot labor different than say an Indian call center?



Which airlines would that be Rez. Please list them for me.

Ryan Airlines.

They are a very real threat. Ryan makes it money selling ancillary services such as cost per luggage (AMR), wheelchair services, and products in flight. The money made is not from flying the jet. So Ryan doesn't value its pilots because the pilots aren't the real revenue generators...

Ryan Air has operating certificates and crew bases in different countries... the big concern: what labor law applies? the country where the op cert. is or the crew base...

Finally, Ryan Air, not Southwest is the model that is being copies globally.



Actually, I would think that the European pilots would be worried that their flying would be outsourced. If they outsourced their flying to the US and paid in Dollars, they would be saving a ton of money.

The EU pilots are concerned. For example, the BA pilots and BA's new airline Open Skies.

What was stopping VA or Skybus from getting work visa's for the peasants working the fields in 3rd world countries to become pilots when they started operations? I don't know of any law that says a US airline must employ only US pilots.

Well Skybus no longer operates, but you knew that...

Good point on the visas.... What is to stop a company from politicking gov't to give work and resident permits to foreign workers? Its just a piece of legislation away...

Do you back the ALPA PAC? cause I can assure you that companies back their PAC's so they can run this legislation.

I find it comical that you are so paranoid about have a foreign owner shipping your job overseas when the American owners would do it in a heartbeat if they could.

I don't make this stuff up. I am just reporting the possibilities as I have learned them.

Consider this...:

Regulators grant SkyTeam trans-Atlantic antitrust immunity
Thursday May 22, 10:52 pm ET Federal regulators grant Northwest and SkyTeam partners trans-Atlantic antitrust immunity

EAGAN, Minn. (AP) -- The U.S. Department of Transportation granted trans-Atlantic antitrust immunity Thursday for Northwest Airlines and five of its SkyTeam alliance partners: Delta, Air France, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, Alitalia and CSA Czech Airlines.
The expanded immunity makes it easier for the six airlines to work together and share profits on trans-Atlantic flights. The federal agency granted preliminary approval in April.
To win antitrust approval, Eagan-based Northwest Airlines Corp. and Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc. had to promise to coordinate only on trans-Atlantic operations. They're still expected to compete everywhere else pending completion of Delta's acquisition of Northwest in a stock-swap deal announced last month that would create the world's largest carrier.
"This enhanced ability to coordinate among the carriers will provide a more positive, seamless experience for our customers with single-ticketing, seamless baggage handling, and greater customer ease and convenience," Northwest President and CEO Doug Steenland said in a statement. "It is also good news in light of skyrocketing fuel costs." Steenland said the Transportation Department's final order will make the combined Northwest-Delta a more effective competitor.


The concern here is AF/KLM takes over the Transoceanic flying. A precedence we don't want set.

AF/KLM says to NWA/DAL... you can bring the asia market to the US and your narrowbodies feed our KLM/AF widebody jets in the US and we'll take it from there and do ALL the transatlantic flying... as long as the NWA/DAL brand gets their agreed share of the ticket cost, do you think Steenland and Anderson care if American Pilots fly it?


I am not saying all of this will happen? However, the maritime industry doesn't look too good for us....

The information is out there...
 
Ryan Airlines.

They are a very real threat. Ryan makes it money selling ancillary services such as cost per luggage (AMR), wheelchair services, and products in flight. The money made is not from flying the jet. So Ryan doesn't value its pilots because the pilots aren't the real revenue generators...

Ryan Air has operating certificates and crew bases in different countries... the big concern: what labor law applies? the country where the op cert. is or the crew base...

Finally, Ryan Air, not Southwest is the model that is being copies globally.

This is just a bunch of crap. I know about two dozen RyanAir pilots....I've taught them how to fly.

The first year is a little tough.....they have to pay for their own type, buy their own uniforms and work pretty hard, but when that's over, RyanAir pilots are very well rewarded for their efforts.

....far better than than US Airlines.

Also, RyanAir is becoming a place to gain some experience before moving on to a higher paying airline....a la, BA, BMI, DHL, Virgin, EasyJet, Cathay or Emirates.

Sound familiar?

ALPA needs to figure out how to get on top of foreign ownership and use it to its advantage. Just saying "no" while it happens is not enough.

I mean, common guys, ALPA is still fighting for assembly line jobs in a fully robotic world. It's time to get with the program and embrace the good that foreign ownership can do for this industry.

Oh, and if you think that it's gonna be cheaper to send a student through the MCL integrated courses than it does today, I've some ocean-front property near Gila Bend that I'd like to offer you an incredible price on.

That's in Arizona.
 
competition? Every other month their was a new Airline du jour popping up, with their introductory airfares. All these new airlines sucked the life out of the legacy carriers who could only cut service and employees to try and compete. Americans wanted 39.00 airfares? well they got em. Now we will all pay. You are a pilot, you know how much it costs to run an airplane. If the seats don't pay that cost, there is something rotten going on. The last thing we need is more subsidized "competition"


Us Airlines are like fast food, foreign carriers (like Japan or Korean) actually have service and get a premium for such service. Maybe some first class competition is needed to raise the bar of domestic travel.

If I want to pay more and get less, I'll move to NY!
 
The worst example of a bad job in Europe that anybody can come up with (Ryan) , pays its pilots over $100,000 Euros per year. Go figure how that works
 
The worst example of a bad job in Europe that anybody can come up with (Ryan) , pays its pilots over $100,000 Euros per year. Go figure how that works

No kidding. Direct from the RyanAir website:


Captains
Up to £100,000 +($198k USD)
Up to €130,000 + ($205k USD)
First Officers (1,500 hrs)
Up to £70,000 +($139k USD)
Up to €80,000 +($126k USD)


Home every night, domiciles all over Europe. That's pay in pounds/Euros. Far better than getting locked into a foreign contract that locks you into a multi-year contract being paid in the increasingly devalued dollar.

5 days on / 4 days off. Holy S!!!. I've been on them, and they're the very definition of the "cattle car". But man, they sure know how to make money.



http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/about.php?page=Jobs&sec=careers&ref=app_benefits
 
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Look at the foreign owned companies Emirates and Cathay. They paid their pilots an extra month's salary as a bonus. Even when the airlines were making money, when is the last time American management did that? Not all foreign management is interested in the cheapest way of doing things. Granted, I am only working for my first overseas company, but when we complained about our hotel in training the company went out and got us all furnished apartments in Tokyo. That ain't exactly a good way to save money either. You might enjoy working for a foreign owner, some of them actually care about their employees and there is only 1 US carrier that can say that (SWA).
 
Irony is spelled: the 250 hour ab initio pilot has more pride and thinks he has more value than many of us who have slugged it out in the trenches for peanuts. I'm not buying the fear either.
 
Irony is spelled: the 250 hour ab initio pilot has more pride and thinks he has more value than many of us who have slugged it out in the trenches for peanuts. I'm not buying the fear either.


No, you should be very afraid of foreign ownership very, very afraid. I'm afraid that foreign companies will fill the international market with cheap American labor and bring the International salary levels down.:laugh:
 
What I see is the old union paradigm being advanced ad nauseum - ONLY the unions are capable of stemming the excesses of cutthroat capitalism. Some of the concerns expressed are quite valid; abuse of DFDR data, insufficient training etc.. I just don't think that unions or limits on foreign ownership are the only way to address these concerns. In fact, a vibrant and competent regulator (I know, but I can dream can't I?) should be doing a lot of this stuff.

Whether we like it or not, it's a global economy and it's getting more global every day. The winners will be the ones who are going to jump in aggressively and take advantage of the new opportunities while the losers will stay mired in their mid twentieth century mindsets.
 
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Time limit set on foreign pilots in India’s airlines

According to a report in the Times of India, the country’s aviation ministry has specified that Indian carriers can employ an overseas pilot “up to a time limit of four years or July 31, 2010 whichever is earlier”. For a foreign pilot to obtain an extension after that time limit then the matter would have to be referred by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) to the ministry. The report quoted the DGCA’s deputy Director General A.K.Sharan “While sending proposals for continued utilization of foreign pilots, airlines should justify their demand for new aircraft can’t be fulfilled from the present Indian market despite their efforts in recruiting and training of Indian pilots”.
Presently nearly 1,000 pilots employed by Indian airlines are from outside the country.


India wants Indian pilots.

And when other foreign carriers buy controlling % of US airlines do you think they will want to hire US pilots or their own Nationals?
 

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