ALPA Pay...unreal!

[Freebrd]

From the Majors Board:

Nothing will change within ALPA. Those in charge are so far out of touch with reality they haven't a clue as to what the real line pilots are going through.

ALPA officers need to stop hob knobing and playing politics with the Washington elite. They need to realize that they are not white collar executives (although their pay sure reminds them of it) but are leaders of a blue collar labor union. Until they remember their roots and start acting like a true labor union, nothing will change. The situation is disgusting as is their pay (2003 figures):

Amount to ALPA OFFICERS- $1,041,898
Amount to ALPA Employees- $27,736,254
(S) salary (A) allowances

President-D. Woerth $ 412,451 (S) $ 130,000 (A)

1st VP- DOLAN $115,000 (A)

AP Admin- Rice $ 125,200 (A)
VP Finance – Beebe $125,200

Dir Representative $399,866
General Manager $384,175
Dir Representati $377,852
Legal Director, $361,802
Dir Eng and Air $321,586
Dir Communicatio $ 313,382
Asst Dir Represe $280,516
Supervisor Legal $279,938
Dir Government $ 279,900
Asst Dir Represe $276,349
Asst Dir Represe $253,357
Superviosr Legal $ 248,929
Legal Supervisor $248,440
Dir Retirement A $ 241,440
Managing Attorney $230,670
Sr. Contract Admi $225,467
Sr. Contract Admi $ 221,496
Sr. Contract Admin $220,721
Asst Dir E & AS $220,300
Sr. Contract Admi $218,275
Sr. Dir Represt $ 217,826
Dir Economic And $ 209,433
Sr. Attorney, $ 205,736
Manager Economic $203,122
Sr. Contract Admi $202,568
Sr Contract Admi $ 197,628
Sr. Attorney $187,753
Sr. Legislative R $186,160
Sr. Attorney $185,467
Dir, Human Resources $183,813
Manager Informat $175,859
Pension Inv Coor $ 175,265
Enrolled Actuary $ 175,265
Sr Contract Admi $169,963
Sr. Field Represent $ 169,576
Sr. Contract Admi $ 168,834
Manager Systems $167,180
Sr Contract Admi $165,677
Supervisor Colle $159,630
Sr. Benefits Atto $ 156,121
Sr. Attorney $156,041
Sr. Representativ $154,515
Mgr Security & H $153,963
Sr. Contract Admin $151,483
Mgr. Accident Investigation $142,333

ALPA Retirement Plans Contributions $3,891034

ALPA PAC Contributions $ 822,000

Flight Pay LOSS $27,632,094
Travel Expenses Member $12,431,938

As of 12/31/2003 Source : DOL Website

 

[1hydraulicpump]

Getting mad about this is just plain dumb. Contract Administrators are lawyers. Most lawyers can make 200k plus outside of ALPA, so why is it a big deal? And if you don't like Duane Woerth's salary, lets see you try to do that job... Besides, compared to a Whale capt. making 250k a year, I think President of ALPA is a little bit harder job.

 

[Ben Dover]

Getting mad about this is just plain dumb. Contract Administrators are lawyers. Most lawyers can make 200k plus outside of ALPA, so why is it a big deal?

Actually, I think you are guessing a little high....oh, like about double what the average lawyer makes.

http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-29471/fid-6886 Check out this link for a better idea of the average lawyers salary.

 

[idratherfly4283]

last time i checked, we wear white collars in the cockpit

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

ALPA ain't perfect, and I disagree with some of their positions, but I feel my dues are well-spent. When I start to find myself thinking otherwise, I think of the alternative and that usually recalibrates my gyro. Get involved or shut up.

 

[No Delay]

Let's not bring someone down because they are making a good living....good for them! You need to be pissed that we (pilots) make so little. That is what is wrong with this industry now.

 

[AviatorTx]

Amount to ALPA OFFICERS- $1,041,898
Amount to ALPA Employees- $27,736,254
(S) salary (A) allowances

President-D. Woerth $ 412,451 (S) $ 130,000 (A)

1st VP- DOLAN $115,000 (A)

AP Admin- Rice $ 125,200 (A)
VP Finance – Beebe $125,200

Definition: CHUMP CHANGE.

$412k for a President of an organization of this size and responsibility. Small change.

I counter with this; What does the CEO of YOUR AIRLINE make??? I bet it's a lot more than $412k

The same applies for the VP's and Manager positions. ALPA vs. Airline; The Airline guys make a lot more with salary, allowances, and stock options.

These are competitive salarys for the relative positions out there. The attorneys and experts ALPA has on staff are paid this because they would go somewhere else that DOES pay competitive salary if ALPA did not. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

It's the cost of doing business. This is business. If ALPA was all volunteer, the organization would not be worth the paper it is chartered under. I am by no means a D.W. fan, but I have no heartache over his salary.

Are you a Management pilot? This is a Management, union busting tactic. That's why I ask.

 

[ex j-41]

Maybe if the ALPA workers got paid $17,000 for
a change they would get a better idea of what
we go through.
The hardship of trying to feed our family, paying
the mortgage. and all that!

Sure they may be worth it but we are worth so
much more and they don't give a fat flying uck.

Ask them to give up their pensions.

 

[Freebrd]

>>>>>>>>>>Getting mad about this is just plain dumb.<<<<<<

Not mad, but a little disgusted, and I'm a line pilot. One wonders what, in addition to ALAP pay, else they get from their respective airlines?

 

[AviatorTx]

Not mad, but a little disgusted, and I'm a line pilot. One wonders what, in addition to ALAP pay, else they get from their respective airlines?

They don't get paid from their respective airlines while on ALPA trip loss. That would be double dipping. They get paid one salary. The ALPA salary. The salary posted. They do not get pay from their airlines as they are off line full time. No fly, no pay.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Definition: CHUMP CHANGE.

$412k for a President of an organization of this size and responsibility. Small change.

I counter with this; What does the CEO of YOUR AIRLINE make??? I bet it's a lot more than $412k

The same applies for the VP's and Manager positions. ALPA vs. Airline; The Airline guys make a lot more with salary, allowances, and stock options.

You are more correct than you know. Do a little research on ULLICO and you will find at AFLCIO directors have enriched themselves by playing with stock options on the Union's preferred insurance underwriter. Unions are not held to the same accounting standards as Public Companies, so we do not know just how much money is made by senior officials in our union. Further, ULLICO is not a public company. The stock price is set by the ULLICO Board itself. So, a senior union guy on the Board gets $7 options while the stock is at $27 and votes the shares to $60 and sells. A nice way to make a ton of money and nobody has to know.

Here is a little quote from one news story...

Until 1997--the year of the Global Crossing investment--ULLICO shares were limited to union officials and priced at $25. Since then, the price of the stock has been set by the board of directors once a year to reflect changes in the value of the investment. As a result, union officials on the board of directors knew that if Global Crossing was going up, ULLICO stock would go up, too--and could make investment decisions accordingly.

In December 1999, Georgine secretly gave ULLICO directors and officers a chance to buy stock before the price was increased to reflect gains in Global Crossing. But when Global Crossing stocks tanked, most union board members sold ULLICO stock at $146 per share--because they knew that ULLICO stocks would soon be reduced to $75 per share.

Total profit for directors: $6.5 million.

I do not know at what levels Union Directors get to play. As a President, you would think Duane Woerth has a pass, but since none of this is public, who knows....

 

[BluDevAv8r]

They don't get paid from their respective airlines while on ALPA trip loss. That would be double dipping. They get paid one salary. The ALPA salary. The salary posted. They do not get pay from their airlines as they are off line full time. No fly, no pay.

And furthermore, 99% of the positions listed above are staff positions covered by professionals in that field - not pilots. Most of my lawyer friends make as much, if not more, than the contract administrators make at ALPA...and they don't have to put up with us.

-Neal

 

[~~~^~~~]

And furthermore, 99% of the positions listed above are staff positions covered by professionals in that field - not pilots. Most of my lawyer friends make as much, if not more, than the contract administrators make at ALPA...and they don't have to put up with us.

-Neal

But, I can guarantee if your buddies are on a Partner track, they work a heck of a lot harder. 90 to 130 hours a week were not unusual where I used to work, particularly in preparation for trial.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

But, I can guarantee if your buddies are on a Partner track, they work a heck of a lot harder. 90 to 130 hours a week were not unusual where I used to work, particularly in preparation for trial.

Yea, my friends are just a few years out of school, but most don't do litigation - only a few. The rest do corporate law. They all work hard (or at least spend a lot of hours in their offices doing who knows what). They all made $130k their first year out of school and most make much more now.

Either way, the couple of ALPA attorneys that I have worked with all put in serious hours, especially the ones higher up the food chain who work with several properties, etc. Are there a few that could go away? Of course, just like any organization. But I've met a bunch and all are very intelligent professionals with a true passion for what they do. Most of the himming and hawwing on this site comes from people who have never even met one of these people let alone worked closely with them...as I know you know.

-Neal

 

[FoxHunter]

They don't get paid from their respective airlines while on ALPA trip loss. That would be double dipping. They get paid one salary. The ALPA salary. The salary posted. They do not get pay from their airlines as they are off line full time. No fly, no pay.

Pay based on average book rates, top three ALPA carriers $295,816 ($298.19/hr at 82.67 hours per month)

Presidential Override at 26% of above $76,912

Total Base Compensation $372,728

National Officer Service Allowance 2003 (adjusted for CPI) $40,000

Total Pay $412,728

Pension 5% per year of service, max 60% of Total Base Compensation, providing for single premium annuity commencing at age 55 or termination of office whichever is later. 8 yrs service = 40% X $372,728 = $149,091.20 per year. 12 years service = 60% X $372,728 = $223,636.80 per year.

If the National Officer maintains a primary residence outside the Washington DC area and has not received a relocation allowance, shall be eligible to receive a national Officer Dislocation Allowance. President, Housing Incumbent $4,500 (New $5,750) per month. Meals $1,500 per month. Travel & Incidental $1,500 per month.

Automobiles, President- new Lincoln LS or similar cost American/North American made automobile every two years. All costs including aquisition costs(lease or purchase), maintenance, insurance, tags and vehicle related taxes are to be paid by the Association.

 

[AviatorTx]

And there you have it. I knew the exact formula for pay was out there somewhere. I still say this is chump change compared to the average airline CEO. Anyone know what J.O's annual salary is with all of the bonus' and stock options??? (I don't that's why I ask)

Maybe if the ALPA workers got paid $17,000 for
a change they would get a better idea of what
we go through.
The hardship of trying to feed our family, paying
the mortgage. and all that!

Sure they may be worth it but we are worth so
much more and they don't give a fat flying uck.

Ask them to give up their pensions.

Remember:

It's your MANAGEMENT that is asking you to work for $17,000, and MANAGEMENT that is taking pilot pensions away. Not the pilots union(s).

I simply suggest directing your angst in the right direction.

Until WE insist the bar is raised (take note Mesa and CHQ) nothing will change. On top of this, pilots seem willing to go fly at Go Jets for $56 an hour for 70 seat CA pay... Sigh.

 

[acaTerry]

...yet there are those who say PILOTS make too much money at the regionals...

 

[ex j-41]

Regional Pilot

As a regional pilot, or ex for now, It is impossible for ALPA to
represent both mainline pilots and regional pilots.
I believe both pilots would be better off if represented seperately.
70 Seaters and up belong to the Major Airlines. And they deserve Major
airline pay. Were do we draw the line? 90 seaters? 110?

The airlines are using ALPA to their advantage. Management knows what
it is "New" pilots want, and ALPA will give it too them. Somebody negotiated
the $17/hr and i have no idea how that got accepted. The airlines have pilots
by the balls and they have squeezed so hard and for so long that we now
think that we are lucky to have a job.

Our job is to fly the airplane. It is up to the management to sell tickets. If
they cannot sell tickets for what it costs to pay the employees a fair wage
then they should go out of business or subsidize the tickets with
their own salary not mine.

Trans States is a perfect example of the powerless union and a company
that has no respect for its employees. Why work for a new "Trans States"
if they are treating the employees like they are? People have worked hard
for Trans States to get to where they are now. Hulas has outdone himself
this time. He has thrown crap at each and every employee, the new
company is wrong. Ethically and morally. Go Jets belongs to Trans States
employees.

But back to the pay of the ALPA members. Maybe they do deserve it, maybe
they don't. But I am sure that Regional Airlines need Regional Airline Unions. If
one at all.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

As a regional pilot, or ex for now, It is impossible for ALPA to
represent both mainline pilots and regional pilots.
I believe both pilots would be better off if represented seperately.
70 Seaters and up belong to the Major Airlines. And they deserve Major
airline pay. Were do we draw the line? 90 seaters? 110?

This isn't an "ALPA National" issue. It is an individual MEC issue. National doesn't decide this kind of stuff. This is a core misunderstanding of ALPA and its mission and purpose. ALPA is nothing more than a toolbox of resources on issues like these. Splitting up ALPA into MALPA and RALPA would serve no good and only further the bad.

Our job is to fly the airplane. It is up to the management to sell tickets. If
they cannot sell tickets for what it costs to pay the employees a fair wage
then they should go out of business or subsidize the tickets with
their own salary not mine.

Correct. We pilots are our own worst enemies. Until people stop lining up to fly RJ's for $15,000 to $23,000 per year, this will continue. Splitting of a RALPA isn't going to fix this problem. Your anger and frustration is pointed in the wrong direction my friend.

But back to the pay of the ALPA members. Maybe they do deserve it, maybe
they don't. But I am sure that Regional Airlines need Regional Airline Unions. If
one at all.

No union? Enjoy working FARs only and having management have the ability to unilaterally change pay and working conditions.

RALPA? Good luck finding a way to fund it properly. Even XJT, one of the biggest out there, only brings in roughly $1.8mm in dues per year. I cringe at the thought of what our own IAXJTP would look like.

-Neal

 

[pianoman]

I think it's important to point out ALPA didn't sign a contract for peanuts. The pilots of the airline voted it in. Look in the mirror for someone to blame. ALPA is only as good as the pilots in your airline make it.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I think it's important to point out ALPA didn't sign a contract for peanuts. The pilots of the airline voted it in. Look in the mirror for someone to blame. ALPA is only as good as the pilots in your airline make it.

Wow...with comments like that I'd almost guess you might have had some experience on the "dark side." See you in C2....

-Neal

 

[pianoman]

These are not the rates you're looking for......

 

[BluDevAv8r]

These are not the rates you're looking for......

A dress you look good in....

 

[Ben Dover]

This is a core misunderstanding of ALPA and its mission and purpose. ALPA is nothing more than a toolbox of resources on issues like these.

Neal,
I believe your toolbox analogy has merit, to a point. But wouldn't you say that ALPA also has a larger responsiblity as well? Maybe something along the lines of enhancing/protecting the quality and viability of our careers? In my opinion this is where ALPA has dropped the ball. I'm talking about long term thinking like say the early 90's, where was ALPA on the impact of the RJ on the airline industry? Did they miss that one, or just get it wrong?

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,
I believe your toolbox analogy has merit, to a point. But wouldn't you say that ALPA also has a larger responsiblity as well? Maybe something along the lines of enhancing/protecting the quality and viability of our careers? In my opinion this is where ALPA has dropped the ball. I'm talking about long term thinking like say the early 90's, where was ALPA on the impact of the RJ on the airline industry? Did they miss that one, or just get it wrong?

I agree with you, to a point, as well. But herein lies the problem...ALPA National doesn't dictate an MEC's policy or direction. Each individual MEC dictates those things. I agree with you (and have said the very same thing on this forum) that the ball was dropped 10-12 years ago by the mainline MEC's (and APA and the IACP at the time as well). National should have/could have given guidance on the issue but ultimately the mainline MEC's themselves caved on this issue in favor of other issues at the time.

Remember what "National" really is here. "National" is a few officers (President and a few VP's) as well as a whole host of staffers (not pilots) who are paid professionals in the areas of legal, representation, communication, economic & financial analysis, safety, retirement & insurance, etc. Those staffers do not set policy or direction - that is the job of the MEC's in their totality at the ALPA BOD as well as the MEC Chairs and the Executive Board, etc - in other words...it isn't the job of the Wizard of Oz, etc. And ultimately, it is us as line pilots who elect our MEC reps who then elect the MEC officers and the National officers.

-Neal

 

[ex j-41]

Alpa

Funny that it is ALPA telling us we need ALPA.

Like Ford telling us that we need to drive Fords.


I believe and this is just my belief, and i mean no disrespect to anyone or
any organization. But this industry needs to be regulated. We are already
about 75% there, but what about the rest?
If you have a taxi cab company in NYC for example the rates are set by the
local goverment. Sames goes for the busses or subway or ferries.
The general public will pay whatever fare they need to. But
when it comes to Airlines....They would rather pay more money to
park their car (Regulated and taxed) then get to the destination.

How do unions secure such good wages for the railroad industry, shipping etc...
but not for pilots? What process does it take to make the wages livable?
I understand that wages is just one small part of the contract but that is
the most tangable. I cannot pay my mortgage in "Free Jump Seat" perks.

If indeed ALPA did "Fail" 10 years ago... then what is the plan for the future.
Is this industry doomed? Are all jets, 200 seats and under Regional Aircraft?
If Alpa cannot secure a future then maybe and i hate to say this but the
federal goverment should step in. And all contract violations would be in
violation of the DOL's rules and regulations. Fines start at $100k. I personally
would like to see the some 250 contract violations at Mesa sit in front of
a DOL Judge. Think they would be as forgiving?

But ALPA tells me i need ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here we go again. Forget 5 weeks! This submarine thread only took one week to resurface!

Gald to see, this time, cooler heads have prevailed...

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=53627

 

[~~~^~~~]

Neal, Blue Devil, Etc...

National has a duty to follow its own procedures, administrative policies, Constitution & By Laws and the law of our United States in the operation of our union. National has failed. The Courts have determined there is a basis for the pilots of ASA and Comair to proceed in a legal action against our union for these failures.

No contract is binding without the signature of our Union's President. Duane Woerth has signed contracts that have promoted alter ego whipsaw and lead to the destruction of our profession.

National sets the tone and the direction for the Airline Pilots Association. Ex J-41 is correct in his observation - why is ALPA continuing to go down the wrong road?

~~~^~~~