Alaska seniority?

[Z_Pilot]

Pay:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/45/17/

 

[K. Marx]

What a load of crap that is!. It is going to be 10 years for me, probably 8 for new hires.

Or 15 and 13 if age 65 is passed. Plus don't forget that they will have to slow down and threaten furloghs in around a year and a half. Maybe we will even get a letter on Christmas eve next year to that effect.

 

[ferlo]

Maybe because Finan was NEVER an F.O. and NEVER spent a day on Reserve in his life, he feels that telling new hires that it will be a 4 year upgrade is realistic. I was told the same 3.5 years ago. Still on reserve, no holidays, no weekends, and over 30% lighter in the checking account. I'm glad I got to make a very personal contribution to the 106 million dollar 3rd quarter profit... They can take their cutesy Disney planes and that stupid fish and fly them square up their as*es.

 

[Falconjet]

Not to pick nits, but the age isn't necessarily 65. It is the age that the pilot is eligible for full SS benefits. At least age 67 for those born 1960 and later as it stands right now.

FJ

 

[AK737FO]

Easy big guy

Ferlo,
Easy big fella - you're giving yourself a helmet fire. If you are not careful you are going to blow a head gasket! Take some deep cleansing breaths, relax, go to your happy place and the sun will rise tomorrow.
I don't like being 30% down either, but it sure beats what thousands of other guys have had to endure. We could have gone to work at UAL, NWA or DAL - then you would get to practice (again?) what you use as your name.
Yes we made some money last quarter - paid for in part by you and me and 1500 others. BUT, if we are making money it will be pretty hard for them to ask for more in 17 months. If we are making money it will be pretty hard for them to not grow the airline and buy those airplanes they have on order. If we are making money it will be hard for them to argue that we need to be #6 in pay - cuz in 17 more months I bet we will no longer be #6 - I bet we will be #4 or #5 as some of our "brothers" see their contracts voided at other airlines with the stroke of a judges pen.
So sit back, relax and enjoy the ride. Find a happy picture of Elvis, give the wife a big hug, enjoy the job for what it is now, not what it once was. 20 years from now it won't matter. Sitting on the pointy end of a jet for money is not what life is all about.
AK737FO

 

[mach none]

AK737FO

Wear a bib, you are dribbling the cool-aid all over your shirt. You ever hear of the Stockholm syndrome?

We were already making money. The other airlines are taking it in the a$$ and our management will say we need cuts because we need to be competitive. Will we take them, who knows. Will we maintain? Who knows? It would be nice, but I do not agree with your logic. We will only be #4 or 5 because we maintain what we have, not because we negotiated a raise.

 

[av8instyle]

AK737FO

Wear a bib, you are dribbling the cool-aid all over your shirt. You ever hear of the Stockholm syndrome?

We were already making money. The other airlines are taking it in the a$$ and our management will say we need cuts because we need to be competitive. Will we take them, who knows. Will we maintain? Who knows? It would be nice, but I do not agree with your logic. We will only be #4 or 5 because we maintain what we have, not because we negotiated a raise.

Mach None,
I'm not speaking on behalf of AK737FO, but I think you misinterpreted some of what he said. I understand his post as saying that our pay status relative to the rest of the industry would increase by default - by others losing pay. I think we all agree this is not where we want to be. We won't take a pay cut because no one will vote for it and as of this writing bankruptcy isn't going to happen (knock on wood).
As for the rest of the stuff he said, I have to agree with him. Even with our paycut, I can think of a dozen other "major" airlines I'm glad I don't work for.

In my opinion, we got severely boned. But I'm also thankful for what I do have. It's not cool aid, it's a job, one that I still have while guys way senior to me at other airlines are getting put on the street, or have been for the last several years.
But I will only vote for a descent pay increase with at least our current work rules. Nothing less.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Dudes & Duedettes,
I see yall's point. I, for one, am greatful to God for my job. I hear a lot of, "aren't you glad you don't work for xx airlines" and quite frankly, I'm fed up with that crap. My answer to that, with a smile on my face, is "We DON'T work for xx airlines". We are not United, Delta, Northwest, etc. Why are we comparing ourselves to these "more mismanaged" airlines??? I don't think I'm a hard headed pro-union dude. Infact, I can't stand the "us against them" mentality. However, we especially the FOs, are pushed into a corner and are forced to fend for ourselves.
We can all agree that those f**ks upstairs kicked us where the sun don't shine. They even kicked us a few more times when we were down.
I don't think anyone of us wants our company to go down in flames. I'm not however, going to ever forget what these clowns did to us neither. This was a life altering experience for me and I'm sure, for many of you too. The only control I have is to put in 100% +/- 0 and flying the contract. As the saying goes, no matter how many time you wash a rag, it's still a rag. My apologies to the thread starter for taking this discussion further on a tangent. Time to get off of the soap box and eat my pork and beans, AGAIN!

 

[ferlo]

Ferlo,
BUT, if we are making money it will be pretty hard for them to ask for more in 17 months. If we are making money it will be pretty hard for them to not grow the airline and buy those airplanes they have on order. If we are making money it will be hard for them to argue that we need to be #6 in pay AK737FO

Firstly I don't think you are drinking any kool-aid in your post. Secondly, I tend not to mince words, often times it comes off as mental instability. Thirdly, I agree with your above statement 100%, Provided we were dealing with honest, fair, and forthwright people. We are not. This is a business/corporation. The BOD does not care where the dime came from just as long as it comes in. It could be from pax, freight, pet carrige fee, or directly from the flesh of the employees. They don't care. Barring any biblical size epiphanies, or total managment overhaul, (please God) Do not at all be surprised in a year and a half when we exchange openers, the company is going to want to readjust our pay in line with whatever pathetic circumstances have fallen upon the industry by then.

They have way too much invested in terms of time and consequences if they were to veer off of this B.S. Market based pay scheme. I'll point out, rather rhetorically, that the "Market Based" portion of their finances does not include themselves, and of course only counts when the industry is in meltdown, not during the boom years. This is of course a very much one way steet. Downhill. If they were to allow us to be paid #2, like we should be, the wheels come off their wagon. The FA's will say, "why should we be paid #6 when the pilots are paid #2?!" This of course, would go on and on.

Understand that the marketing dept. of Alaska Airlines is aimed at us, the employees, as much as it is aimed at potential customers. Recall the "Alaska is MY Airline" campaign? I, like Dr. Phil, judge things by result. Not by company handbook, not by what Billy Boy says about us in Alaskasworld, or any other propaganda thrust forth from the company. What are the facts? They were turning a profit, they postponed fare hikes until after the award, they raped us of 90 million dollars, they have since cut profit sharing by 50%, run the stock price to multi year highs, and are systematically lining their pockets by cashing in all their stock options. If you work here, you can add your own observations to this list I'm sure. Obviously there are those Arctic Eagles that chug the eskimo flavored Kool-Aid but I honestly think those guys are getting fewer and farther in between. I would also venture a guess that most of them will be retiring shortly.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you how worthless jet options are. They are as reliable as your A plan in 25 years and that next big bid that's rumored to be coming. A company with a billion dollars in the bank and raking in cash has a lot of options, it certainly does not mean they plan on doing anything. I still think this whole Vision 2010 was about leveraging the arbitraition system, (that the arctic eagles of years ago agreed to) to steal money from us. I don't for a second believe that our route structure will look like what they put forth in their B.S. handouts any time soon. Moreover, I have a hard time believing that Kashers evil little palms weren't greased a bit. Time will tell. Let's take the Dr. Phil approach however and see what they actually do, instead of blindly trusting their never ending stream of B.S. that spews from their mouths like a backed up toilet.

As far as the "at least I have a job" argument is concerned, I obviously see your point. My username wasn't just picked out of thin air. I have been furloughed more than once in my 20+ years in this game. You know what? I never missed a meal, I never once missed a financial obligation, and I always landed on my feet. So understand that it's not a choice between flying a jet for Alaska or sleeping in your own urine under a bridge. We are smart enough and dedicated enough to get to where we are now. Those attributes work well in the real world also. In fact, a furlough gave me the impetus to start my own business a few years ago. A profitable one at that. So Viewed in that light, the fact that I am currently employed, is for me, not enough compensation for accepting/rolling over to the new "vision" put forth by the liars and criminals that run this company. I guess it boils down to your personality and your propensity to swallow B.S.

In closing, I want to wish all of you Happy Holidays. As far as the job goes, It has been a very difficult year. Lost homes, wives back to work, daycare for the kids, and the new reality that all those years of sacrafice, and dedication amount to just scraping by for many of us. This of course folded in with the unquantifiable strain on our psyche and personal relationships. As you said, the Sun will rise tomorrow. Things will get better here but only if we stay unified, don't get used to the pain, and show them, as a group, the intestinal fortitude it is going to take to turn around this massive rotten ship named "Kasher".


Happy Holidays, here's to you.
Ferlo

Ps, I still think they can take their tacky little jets and shove them up their as$es.

 

[K. Marx]

Great post Ferlo. I believe your view of managements goal is right on. Luckily most of us at Alaska feel the same way you do. It will get very ugly before it gets better though. Can't wait to see those openers for the next contract. It will be here before you know it, and I hope everyone is saving up for it.