Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Airline pilots working as a CFI

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

cforst513

Giggity giggity goo!!!
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Posts
1,851
How many of you airline, frac, freight dogs, and corporate pilots still teach on the side, when time allows? Seems like it'd be nice to stay current in smaller piston aircraft, though I understand sometimes money can be tight. But if it's on the student's dime, what keeps you from continuing as a CFI?
 
I would guess not many. I think Most companies do not allow you to do commercial flying on the side(Flight Instruction etc.), because it could result in you being timed out (1000hrs in 12 months, if i'm not mistaken) and unable to fly for your company for a period of time.
 
ooooooh. never thought of that. thanks for the heads up.

what if they wanted to rent an airplane and take it up sight seeing? is the 1000hrs/12 months thing total time?
 
I believe the 1000 hours is only Commercial flying. If you fly privately for fun i dont thikn it counts. Someone who works at an airline will have a more definite answer for ya.
 
As far as I know, being a CFI isn't billed as "commercial" flying. You don't even need a medical if you're not acting as PIC. You're getting paid to teach, not fly.

I'm wondering if this does in fact count toward 135/121 times or not...maybe some airline guys can chime in.

~wheelsup
 
My 135 company does count CFI time as comercial time. I'm not going to look it up though because my FAR's are about four years out of date. I mean in date! crap!
 
I work for a great PT91 flight dept where we have plenty of time (and the boss' blessing) to fly on the side. Lately, I've been getting the bug to do some CFI'ing. Last week I went up for the first time in a long time with a student. We were shooting GPS approaches in a C340 and I was reminded how challenging/fun instructing can be.
 
My company (pt 121) requires prior perimision before doing any additional commercial flying, including flight instructing. It's not hard to get permission, but I don't feel like I have the time to instruct while I'm off. I get 10-12 days off per month and commute, so when I'm off I really don't feel like going to the airport. Though I miss flying small planes.
 
There are cases where you do not need a medical, but you must have your commercial or ATP certificate to instruct in an aircraft.

My company requires approval for outside commercial flying and it is normally no problem to get approval if the ampunt of time is not significant. Many airline pilots do not instruct because of liability concerns (when I was a full-time CFI I had no money/assets) and most allow their CFI certificates to expire.
 
Most guys I know who still have their CFIs current will only teach people they know personally, such as family.

While if you are are regional or frieght guy just starting out, you might not have much in the way of assets. Anyone who as any assets that I know won't get near instructing "at-large" due to the huge liability issue, and it's just not worth jumping through all the hoops.

Nu
 
Lawyers are just waiting for a retired airline pilot with a nice big retirement to go out and do a little instructing for fun. Eventually one of his former students will probably end up crashing for some reason and guess who the lawyers will go after? When I started this career I had nothing to lose. Now I do, so renewing my CFI is out of the question. Too much hassle and way too much risk. Thirty years ago my girlfriends parents screwed up a high altitude take off and spun in killing four people. She and her lawyer sued Cessna and won of course. Now why can't Cessna make an idiot proof airplane? I told her it wasn't the airplane's fault but it didn't matter because of the bucks.
 
Flight Instructing for hire = commercial flying.

(If you get paid, it's commercial flying)
 
GogglesPisano said:
Flight Instructing for hire = commercial flying.

(If you get paid, it's commercial flying)

Not exactly.

All most airlines care about is whether your outside flying interferes with your duty and flight time restrictions. That means, other part 135 or 121 flying. Part 91 flight instruction does not interfere with the duty regs that your airline or charter company is required to track for you.

When I worked at my last airline, I had permission to do outside flying. My chief pilot thought I would be doing charters, and gave me a form to track both my charter flying and airline flying. When I told him I would only be doing part 91 flying, he said there was no need to fill out the tracking form. The airline didn't care about any part 91 outside flying.
 
I am not sure if the issue lies within Pt91/135 or in the duty times or both, I have been considering working on sims, it solve the liability problems, it won`t cost you a violation if anything goes wrong, it won`t affect your duty and will allow you to network big time and keep a foot inside a different paycheck enviroment!
 
English said:
The airline didn't care about any part 91 outside flying.

I disagree - if you are flying part 91 and being compensated, those hours go toward the 1000 hour per year limitation. Whether your airline/company cares about this or not is one thing... but I think most of the regionals don't want you doing this... including flight instructing.

Some people argue that when you are instructing, you are not using your commercial ticket but your flight instructors ticket. I believe the reg says commercial flying, not using your commercial ticket.

If you get paid, it goes toward the 1000... unless someone has a FAA legal interpretation on the issue.
 
Ask and you shall receive...


FAA legal opinion:
October 28, 1991
Mr. David Bodlak
Director of Flight Operations
Elliott Beechcraft of Omaha, Inc.
PO Box 19064
Omaha, NE 68119

Dear Mr. Bodlak:

Thank you for your letter of March 15, 1991, which was referred to this office by the Assistant Chief Counsel for the Central Region. We apologize that the press of other inquiries and regulatory matters have prevented us from answering sooner.

In your letter you ask several questions pertaining to rest periods required under Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). You specifically ask about the boundaries of responsibility assigned to the certificate holder when operations unrelated to FAR Part 135 are conducted by a corporation holding an FAR Part 135 Operating Certificate.

The hypothetical situation you give is as follows:

ABC Company, Inc. (ABC) holds FAA operating certificates under FAR Parts 135, 141, and 145. ABC is engaged in the following activities:

Aircraft Maintenance (FAR Part 43, 145)
Aircraft Refurbishing
Aircraft Refueling
Aircraft Sales
On-demand Aircraft Charter (FAR Part 135)
Flight Training (FAR Part 141)
Contract Flight Operations (FAR Part 91)

Your first question asks whether a crewmember (we assume you mean a pilot) who is Part 135 qualified may participate in any of the activities listed below during a required rest period and still accept an assignment for ABC's Part 135 flight operations at the end of the rest period. The activities include:

Work for ABC's Certified Repair Station. (Part 145)
Painting an aircraft for ABC.
Fueling an aircraft for ABC.
Making an aircraft sales call for ABC.
Conduct of a training flight for ABC (Part 141)
Acting as a crewmember on a FAR Part 91 contract flight dispatched by ABC.

FAR 135.263(b) is quoted:

No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to
any duty with the certificate holder during any required
rest period.

None of the activities listed above may be performed by the flight crewmember during a rest period because they are all assigned by the certificate holder and thus in violation of FAR 135.263(b). The FAA has consistently interpreted a "rest period" to be a continuous period of time that is free from all restraint. This includes freedom from work, and freedom from responsibility for work should the occasion arise.

"Duty" has been interpreted to mean actual work for an air carrier or present responsibility to work should the occasion arise.

Your second question asks if this same flight crewmember may participate in the activities previously listed during a rest period if the work was done for another company, not ABC, and whether the flight crewmember could then accept an assignment with ABC for flight operations under Part 135, at the end of the rest period.

The answer is a qualified yes. ABC, as the certificate holder, has no way of forcing the flight crewmember to rest during a rest period. The prohibition against "other commercial flying" during a rest period applies to flying assigned by the certificate holder. The other commercial flying done by the flight crewmember does count against the daily 8 hour limitation if it is done before the Part 135 flying, and also counts against the pilot's quarterly and yearly flight time limitations. For example, 2 hours of "free lance" flight instruction by the pilot during his rest period limits him to only 6 hours of Part 135 flying time during that 24 consecutive hour period. Any other commercial flying done after the Part 135 flying does not count against the daily limitation, but still counts against quarterly and yearly totals.

An additional caution is that it is a violation of FAR 91.13 for a certificate holder or a flight crewmember to operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another. Lack of rest of the pilot is certainly a circumstance which could endanger others, and it is not necessary that the situation devolve into actual endangerment for there to be a violation of FAR 91.13. A certificate holder who uses a crewmember with knowledge of his or her lack of rest may be equally culpable along with the flight crewmember.

This interpretation has been prepared by Arthur E. Jacobson, Staff Attorney, Operations Law Branch, Regulations and Enforcement Division; Richard C. Beitel, Manager, and has been coordinated with the Air Transportation Division of the Flight Standards Service at FAA Headquarters. We hope it has satisfactorily answered your inquiry.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
 
"For example, 2 hours of "free lance" flight instruction by the pilot during his rest period limits him to only 6 hours of Part 135 flying time during that 24 consecutive hour period. Any other commercial flying done after the Part 135 flying does not count against the daily limitation, but still counts against quarterly and yearly totals."
 
For example, 2 hours of "free lance" flight instruction by the pilot during his rest period limits him to only 6 hours of Part 135 flying



Ooooop! Reading comprehension! :o Lesson here, always be extrememly skeptical of legal advice given by chief pilots. In my experience, it is usually based in ignorance and heavily colored by self interest.
 
mcjohn said:
Isn't it true that you only need a 3rd class medical to instruct?

And that you must hold a 2nd class medical to exercise the priveleges of a commercial rating?

That is true

Nope...If your student has a ppl already and you are giving instruction for say a commercial license, the Student(PPL) can be the PIC (Category and Class Rated). The CFI in this instance is not a required crewmember(like a Safetypilot) and has no need for medical.

Sec. 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration
(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate--
(i) When exercising the privileges of a private pilot certificate;
(ii) When exercising the privileges of a recreational pilot
certificate;
(iii) Except as specified in paragraph (b)(3) of this section, when
exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate;
(iv) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor
certificate, except for a flight instructor certificate with a glider
category rating, if the person is acting as the pilot in command or is
serving as a required pilot flight crewmembe



b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not
required to hold a medical certificate:
(5) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor
certificate if the person is not acting as pilot in command or serving
as a required pilot flight crewmember
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom