Airline industry - lateral move?

[Ben Dover]

Anyone ever wonder why it's impossible to make a lateral move in the airline industry? Lets talk about mobility of labor.

My personal belief is more mobility is better than less. I've worked in several industries and never seen one that traps is employees like the airlines. As a pilot, if you want to make a move to another company, you'll take a huge hit in pay/quality of life. When I worked in the tech industry and in finance, I saw people leave left and right for other companies and usually they got equal or better pay.

Here's what's wrong with being trapped. First, companies can treat you like crap and you are powerless to do anything. They know you're not going to leave so you continue to get $hit on.

Second, you are enabling a bad company to continue to operate. When other companies start to sink, the talented folks all start to jump ship. The durth of talent then just expedites the death of that sick organization. As it should be, a Darwinian process where the sick die and the strong remain. Not the airlines, the sick just get sicker, get government loans, labor concessions, and more financing from the banks they owe.

So the question I have for you is, how do we as pilots increase our moblity and lessen the resulting cost in pay and QOL?

 

[DirkkDiggler]

It is all a byproduct of our wonderful unions that do so much great stuff for us all. What would we do without them?

 

[surplus1]

If you would like to get rid of the seniority system, the lateral moves you want would then be possible. Union representation would also then be redundant.

 

[414Flyer]

That is one of the downsides of the seniority system. You cant just make a lateral move to a different airline. Also it encourages people to take a low paying job NOW because of seniority number, instead of holding out for better pay, so in my opinion it does have an effect of depressing starting wages. I am not in the airline industry, nor do I know what would work better, but seniority system does have its disadvantages. Maybe its still the best thing however.

 

[Cosmo1999]

This is one of the few industries where you can not make a lateral move without taking a huge hit. It would sure be nice if you were about to be furloughed that you can be hired somewhere else and not have to start all over at 1st year pay. In almost every other industry top executives, doctors, lawyers, etc can make lateral moves and for the most part keep their salary and benefits roughly the same. The most important part is being most qualified and you will get the pay you deserve. Here however no matter what happens if you make a lateral move you move directly to the bottom of the list to first year pay. I think it would be nice to be able to make lateral moves, however, I also would not want someone getting hired ahead of me and upgrading before me when I have put in a lot of service to the company. Bottom line is senority rules for pilots and its probably the best system we have. It has its flaws but I certainly can not see a more fair way to run things. I dont think a national senority list would be fair either.

 

[labbats]

You can start as a low paying 121 FO and get your time up to apply to a 91 or 135 gig. Other than that, yeah, you're screwed.

 

[airmasn]

4 options for improving QOL and lateralibility:


1. Don't get a degree in anything aviation-related (so if you do get furloughed you have something to fall back on)

2. Get a sugar-momma

3. Hope you're lucky that the airline you pick will be around (good luck with that one) until you retire or at least move on to a major/cargo/whatever your dream flying job is. Then hope that airline is around until you turn 60.

4. Don't be an airline pilot.

 

[Ben Dover]

Thank you for the interesting comments. Personally I don't have the answer, but I have a few ideas.

I don't like the way pay is structured. Basically when you start your career you are required to take sub par wages for the hope/promise of a payoff at the end of your career. Most of us put up with low pay at the regionals in the hopes of getting Captain pay at a major in the future. Throughout history this has proved to be one big gamble.

Personally, I'd rather have a pay scale that isn't so wide. That way I wouldn't be gambling on the big payoff at the end. Basically, I'd forsake the top end of the pay scale to increase the lower end (both in terms of longevity, and position i.e. captian & FO).

Obviously this presents problems. However, for the sake of discussion, if adopted industry wide I think you'd see more movement between carriers if such payscales existed.

 

[ex j-41]

It is all a byproduct of our wonderful unions that do so much great stuff for us all. What would we do without them?

WHAT????

UNIONS work for us?

The unions were created by unions for the sole purpose of unions.

Think of unions as fast food restaurants.
You can only eat at these restaurants.
You know it will be bad for you but you have nowhere else to eat.
Your choice is eat and die of a heart attack or you don't eat and die.
Sounds a lot like the choice of joining a union.

I believe we would all be better off if after we were hired we negotiate
our pay and benifits like other "professional" jobs. Of course that would
mean less money for the unions and less money for the airline.
Now do you see why the new GOJETS wants a relationship with a Union!
It lowers labor costs.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

WHAT????

UNIONS work for us?

The unions were created by unions for the sole purpose of unions.

Think of unions as fast food restaurants.
You can only eat at these restaurants.
You know it will be bad for you but you have nowhere else to eat.
Your choice is eat and die of a heart attack or you don't eat and die.
Sounds a lot like the choice of joining a union.

I believe we would all be better off if after we were hired we negotiate
our pay and benifits like other "professional" jobs. Of course that would
mean less money for the unions and less money for the airline.
Now do you see why the new GOJETS wants a relationship with a Union!
It lowers labor costs.

I guess you don't pick up on sarcasm very well, ehh?

 

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

Thank you for the interesting comments. Personally I don't have the answer, but I have a few ideas.

I don't like the way pay is structured. Basically when you start your career you are required to take sub par wages for the hope/promise of a payoff at the end of your career. Most of us put up with low pay at the regionals in the hopes of getting Captain pay at a major in the future. Throughout history this has proved to be one big gamble.

Personally, I'd rather have a pay scale that isn't so wide. That way I wouldn't be gambling on the big payoff at the end. Basically, I'd forsake the top end of the pay scale to increase the lower end (both in terms of longevity, and position i.e. captian & FO).

Obviously this presents problems. However, for the sake of discussion, if adopted industry wide I think you'd see more movement between carriers if such payscales existed.

You are correct in thinking wages need to be fatter at the early end of the career. Not only to make switching between companies more doable, but also because retirement pay is becoming OUR problem with the old pension structures crumbling into dust. We need more of our retirement money upfront to invest at our discretion if we are not going to have 60% of our last 5 years pay to look forward to. But right now, concessions are the norm and pensions are dying. A BIG lose-lose scenario for all of us.

 

[ex j-41]

You are correct in thinking wages need to be fatter at the early end of the career. Not only to make switching between companies more doable, but also because retirement pay is becoming OUR problem with the old pension structures crumbling into dust. We need more of our retirement money upfront to invest at our discretion if we are not going to have 60% of our last 5 years pay to look forward to. But right now, concessions are the norm and pensions are dying. A BIG lose-lose scenario for all of us.

Nail on the head pal!
Right now it is a win for Pax's, CEO's, and management.
And a big loss for pilots and their families.

 

[CptOver]

The fact is that there is no reason for unions IF companies took care of their employees. Unfortunately, ALL airline managements to not give a crap about any of their employees, their QOL or their families.

Unions were organized to protect the employees, and they do that pretty well, I think. Your right if you think Duane Worth doesn't give a crap about you or your airline, he doesn't need to. The pilots at YOUR airline make up your union, they are the ones that fight your fights, stick up for your rights, and negotiate your pay. If you have a problem with them, vote them out and volunteer yourself to take their place. ALPA nationals only job is to negotiate at the national level (ie. government...age 60 etc.) and to give your local MEC reps power(support), money, and training to manage their own MEC's.

My point is, ALPA national is not going to come in and negotiate YOUR contract. That is your job, you and your coworkers make up your union (they're voted in for godsake, not hired). If you sign a subpar contract or accept concessions, you do that to yourselves.

As far as the seniority system, it sucks. It eleviates the "Good Ole Boys" club though and no one seems to complain as long as everything keeps moving. Only in stagnation does it seem unfair, with no improvement in sight.

 

[ThisistheDream]

heres an idea when you get hired at an ALPA carrier you keep the longevity when you move to a different ALPA carrier. The only thing is then the airlines wont hire any previous ALPA pilot since they would have to pay you 5th 10th year pay etc. vs. the other guy who wasnt ALPA who would start at 1st yr. pay

 

[ThisistheDream]

Is it possible for ALPA to get every 121 Airline to become a ALPA unionized pilot group and after that happens have a contract and pay scale for the same for every equipment for every airline and then the airlines would have to whip saw card. A 757 pilot gets paided the same whter at NWA or DAL etc..

 

[say again]

4 options for improving QOL and lateralibility:


1. Don't get a degree in anything aviation-related (so if you do get furloughed you have something to fall back on)

2. Get a sugar-momma

3. Hope you're lucky that the airline you pick will be around (good luck with that one) until you retire or at least move on to a major/cargo/whatever your dream flying job is. Then hope that airline is around until you turn 60.

4. Don't be an airline pilot.

I'll have to agree with #2. That would be "living the dream!" Now if I could only figure how to get one.

 

[FN FAL]

Lateral moves would be all fun and games until you found yourself sitting 16 years in a regional right seat waiting for an upgrade, while the regional you worked for hired captains from the cargo and 135 industry.

 

[Dodge]

heres an idea when you get hired at an ALPA carrier you keep the longevity when you move to a different ALPA carrier.

Here's the thing. Unions are a socialized form of representation. Having a ALPA number and seniority date to carry over to a new carrier is a good idea, but one that BOTH the unions and managements would balk at.

For obvious cost reasons, management would decline such a theory, as mentioned before in a previous post. ALPA would not go for it because of all the regional pilots with decades of service, thus lowering the career expectations of those coming out of the military.