Age Discrimination

[Indigo]

Thought I'd better move this to a new thread.

Since I've only lurked here on occasion, I don't really know your story, Bobbysamd. But I looked at your profile to see how old you are. I'm not sure what you're considering "old" but I do know some people that were hired by regionals in their 40s who didn't have a great deal of experience and were career-changers. However, this was during the better hiring times of 4 to 5 years ago.

If you really want to talk about age discrimination, look at the US Government. Last time I checked (which has been a while), ATC people had to be <30 and USFS leadplane pilots <40 when they were hired.

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination

My conclusion and belief that I suffered age discrimination rests on seeing my peers, who were 25 or less, getting interviews and jobs at the same regionals to which I, at 40, give or take a year, applied. This was during the 1987-91 hiring boom. I applied to and updated with these very same regionals countless times, and never heard from them. I applied and updated with some of these regionals for five or six years. In the meantime, my younger peers were getting the interviews and jobs.

My peers did not have experience that would make them better qualified than me. They were flight instructors, just like me. They met mins; I met or exceeded mins. They had four-year degrees; I had a four-year degree. The only difference was I was older.

I've written tons on this board about my experiences as a career changer. My posts, on this thread , is an example. Run an "age discrimination" search on the board for others.

Thanks for your interest. I sincerely appreciate it.

 

[Indigo]

Re: Age discrimination

My posts, on this thread , is an example.

That was some interesting reading.

A few years ago I applied to a number of regional airlines. I'm not really a career-changer or a late starter but I have had a very slow career progression. I was also "older" (early 40s). I interviewed and was turned down by one regional which was probably all my fault because I didn't know how to play the interview game. I also received invitations to interview from a few others. I never did interview with any of the others because I got a job with a charter company which worked out better for me anyway, IMHO.

So I guess I can't really say whether or not I think there is age discrimination. If there is, I agree with the poster who said it's because they're afraid older people won't be led around as easily or tolerate as much abuse as younger people. If you come across the same way in an interview that you do in your posts and I was an interviewer for a company who was looking for people to toe the line without question, I would look for someone else.

Anyway, hope things have worked out for you. Looking at your times it seems like you would be able to get a job in charter, corporate or fractionals when hiring picks up.

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination

That was some interesting reading.

Thanks. Thought that you would find it of interest.

A few years ago I applied to a number of regional airlines. I'm not really a career-changer or a late starter but I have had a very slow career progression. I was also "older" (early 40s). I interviewed and was turned down by one regional which was probably all my fault because I didn't know how to play the interview game. I also received invitations to interview from a few others.

During 1990-1991 I had four interviews, and a cattle call with Express I/NW Airlink (is that Pinnacle now?). I wasn't hired. I might not have interviewed well because I was excited about just getting an interview. I would submit that a large percentage of our readers do not realize how hard it is to get a regional airline interview. I would submit that perhaps I was brought in for an interview in bad faith because of my age to help them check off an EEOC and ADEA square.

Now, I can hear people say I got interviews and what am I complaining about - that I screwed up the interviews I had. Maybe, although people interview poorly and are still hired. My point is I never heard at all from regionals where my much-younger colleagues had also applied and were hired. I can hear people say that I should not have disclosed my age and I was stupid to do so. There is no point in not being up-front about your age because it will be found out; moreover, I was counseled that being older would be an advantage because of the maturity factor.

If you come across the same way in an interview that you do in your posts and I was an interviewer for a company who was looking for people to toe the line without question, I would look for someone else.

I appreciate your observation. Much of it is writing style honed by my work in the law office.

My employment history has always shown that I have been loyal to my companies and walked the extra mile for them. I have always "toed the line."

I had interviews for other aviation jobs and was hired. One interview was before a board of consisting of a taciturn ex-AF colonel and his owners, who were United Airlines pilots. This was for a company that did primarily airline training. I interviewed successfully at MAPD, which upgrades instructors to FO positions. That could be considered as a quasi-airline interview. I was always extremely grateful for the interviews I had and said so. I always followed-up with thank-you notes to all people I met. I would have jumped for joy just to have been invited to class.

Looking at your times it seems like you would be able to get a job in charter, corporate or fractionals when hiring picks up.

No. I'm not going back. My life has changed since I gave up ten years ago. I might go back to part-time instructing one day.

Thanks again for reading what I've had to say.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Interviewer: So Bobby, tell us about a time when you had to deal with failure.

Bobby: Well, there was this time when I inteviewed unsuccessfully for several different jobs. But it wasn't my fault. It was because I was too old. After all, I've evaluated all other aspects of the process and there is nothing I could have done better. On second thought, I blame Kit Darby for selling me on a false dream.

Interviewer: Thank you for your time.



I know this sounds like a flame. It's not meant to be. It's just what I honestly hear.
Regarding hiring folks in their early 40's, I'm wondering why I've seen all kinds of folks in their 40's getting hired by regionals, nationals, and majors over the last few years (likely the toughest airline hiring market in history), and back during a hiring "boom" they were more selective. Seems like the opposite of what one would expect.

 

[bobbysamd]

Logic

From you, Hugh, I don't regard it as a flame.

I said I had interviews. I'm looking at it logically. Once again, I'm talking about the ones who got jobs at the same regionals to which I applied but never heard from. I've never been able to figure out why I wasn't called when the only difference between me and my peers was age. Is there some kind of clandestine airline H.R. network where information about applicants is shared?

As I wrote above, it doesn't take much intelligence to determine one's age from a resume, job app, driving records, FAA files, or the tons of other documentation available to employers.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Ooops

I just sent a diatribe into cyberspace somewhere. Wonder where it will end up. Anyway, Bobby certainly makes a valid point. I've seen some of the strangest things go against people in this hiring thing. Too much experience for job, not enough, age, etc. Sometimes there's just no rhyme or reason and fairness often comes in last here. It's unfortunate, because I'm guessing any cockpit would benefit from guys like Bobby and others who get passed by for reasons unbeknownst to us. Seriously, no slam intended on Bobby, he's a helpful, positive guy on this board (except for one subject ). I really would not discourage anyone from trying to do what they want, regardless of age, but I guess it's no surprise to anyone that some older dudes are going to get passed by.

Perhaps the reason older guys are getting hired now is because these particular older folks have a lot of experience as opposed to a career changer. My only guess at an expanation...

 

[bobbysamd]

Career changers v. career pilots

[H]e's a helpful, positive guy on this board . . .

Thanks, Hugh.

Perhaps the reason older guys are getting hired now is because these particular older folks have a lot of experience as opposed to a career changer. My only guess at an expanation...

That's been my point all along.

There has been much publicity, with much of it pushed by Kit, that airlines hire over-40 pilots. It's true. I saw it even ten to fifteen years ago. Kit, in Piloting Careers and Career Pilot, had a column called "Congratulations, FAPA Pilots." In the column he published FAPA members' names who were new hires. The hidden part of the story is the 40-and-over crowd had years and years of experience and were extremely well-qualified people.

Based on my experiences and those of others, I believe that it is the regionals in particular who give short shrift to later-life career changers. Those who started flying later and/or resumed the career later, who, at about 40 or so, had built just enough experience to meet their mins. These people meet the same quals as the younger people. They've done all the same things as younger applicants. They've earned their ratings and have built their experience, yet the only difference is age. That is the particular group which, I believe, suffers from age discrimination at the regionals. I would like to know why the regionals show such people little respect. That is my point.

Finally, don't think I feel that age discrimination in employment happens only in aviation. It happens through industry, the professions, everywhere.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Hhhhmmm,

I'm a mid-life career changer, began learning to fly when I was 37. Started flight instructing when I was 41. In my short career I have been offered a job at every regional operator that I have interviewed with (and getting the interview has not been an easy task these past couple of years). I'm just an average white male who works to do his best at every job or position that I've ever held. Aviation is about career #5 for me, and I have always felt that my age was a benefit for me in this field.

From my perspective, age discrimination is a non-issue at this time in this industry.

 

[bobbysamd]

Congratulations!

In my short career I have been offered a job at every regional operator that I have interviewed with . . . . From my perspective, age discrimination is a non-issue at this time in this industry.

I'm glad to see that someone beat the odds. It's nice to see that some entities are now enlightened and/or respect the ADEA.

I and at least two other people I know who were approximately my age were passed over in favor of younger people. One of them was far better qualified than me; she had Ameriflight freight and ditch air tours time, along with being one of the best flight instructors I ever met. This gal had tried for years to get Horizon's attention, but our much younger, and less qualified (than her) male and female colleagues suceeded. Go figure; I've tried.

 

[Timebuilder]

Based on my experiences and those of others, I believe that it is the regionals in particular who give short shrift to later-life career changers. Those who started flying later and/or resumed the career later, who, at about 40 or so, had built just enough experience to meet their mins. These people meet the same quals as the younger people. They've done all the same things as younger applicants. They've earned their ratings and have built their experience, yet the only difference is age. That is the particular group whom, I believe, suffers from age discrimination at the regionals. I would like to know why the regionals show such people little respect. That is my point.

I think older applicants are not favored by regionals because we are more mature and have more life experience. Consider this: a younger pilot, with stars in his eyes, sees himself one day getting that Big Airline job, with the nice house, the BMW Z4, and the cute swedish FA for his wife. Post 9-11, his chances of any of that have been reduced to such a small factor as to be almost impossible for the next twenty years. He is more gullible, and will be willing to swallow a lot of BS and keep on smiling. Older guys are going to be more discriminating, and will be willing to question bad decisions by management. Why would a low paying regional want someone like me who might lead a job action at their airline for better pay, or petition the FAA and congress for a change in duty time rule interpretation? So, why not sign up as many of the easily manipulated, moldable, "I'm just so gosh darn happy to be here" types as you possibly can?

No doubt the young regional pilots aren't as silly as my example, so put down the flamethrower. It's management that is being silly, not you. They think you're the cat's meow? Hey, lucky for you! I'd cherish that job if you love to fly, because I can see age 40 being thought of as "old" in just a few years, since the "age line" has been creeping down steadily over the past 40 years. In the 60's, the phrase was "don't trust anyone over 30". Now, it's "don't hire anyone over 30".

Future Shock. There's something for everyone.