Advice re experience vs industry sectors

[Tinstaafl]

G'day all.

This seems the most appropriate forum, based on my perusing the others. If not, I'll see about getting this closed/moved.

I'm soon to move to the US and am trying gauge what sort of experence level(s)/flight times the various categories within the job market consider appropriate in order for for someone to apply eg small flying school, large flying school, air taxi/charter, freight, regionals etc.

Of course I want to compare your information with my own experience level so I can gain an appreciation of where I could fit within the system and should concentrate my efforts. I'll be based in Orlando in about 2 months time.

I'm aware that the majors are in a slump, releasing large numbers of people into the market. Furloughed? Does the market allow them to work elsewhere or are employers wary because they'll move on once the furlough is over?

My knowledge of the US scene is sketchy so I don't really have a feel for the way things work there. Browsing the various forums here has helped but I'm still rather in the dark...

Your thoughts & comments are most welcome.

T.


NB: I'm currently employed by a Scottish regional airline flying BN2 Islanders in the Shetland Islands. I have:

UK & Australian ATPLs + a US ATP-MEL. I expect I'll need to add a single engine certificate
4500 tot (all piston),
1400 multi in C310, C402, Aztec, Chieftan, Aerostar, Seneca, Baron, Islander + a few others. Nearly all is command.
2400 instructing in Oz (at small & large schools, PPL, CPL, night, instrument, multi & aerobatics). I intend to get the US equivalents (CFI, CFII & MEI. Are there others?).
Have previously had chief pilot & chief instructor jobs as well.

 

[Tinstaafl]

Anyone?

 

[bigsky]

If I understand your question correctly- I would guess that you should be able to find employment at a regional( Comair/ASA Amer Eagle, Etc......)They do seem to be hiring again!
You seem to be plenty qualified for that and as long as you are eligible for employment in US would think you are pretty competitive.
Also I would look at corporate and fractional ownership(netjets, flex jet....)
The major airlinesare not hiring except some like southwest, ...and national carriers like jetblue and airtran. I would guess though that many want to see some turbine experience and SWA wants 1000 pic turbine.
Goodluck!

 

[pilotyip]

problem

Non US passport holding US certificated pilots must be cleared by the FAA to attend any training event, they normally give you a 7 day window. This includes, initial, recurrent, sim training, line checks any thing that is offical and recorded in your training record has to be per-cleared by the FAA. This is a pain for the training dept and company's may avoid this problem by not hiring non-US pilots.

 

[Tinstaafl]

Thanks guys.

I'm marrying a US citizen & we've decided to live in the States so I'll be eligible for a work permit. You're correct in your assumption in that I am trying to gauge where within the US system my experience level would 'slot in'. It's difficult to get a good feel for how foreign country's labour market works & what the norms might be.

 

[Mr Proachpoint]

Hey Tinstaafl,

Thought I would throw my 2 cents worth in as I did what you are doing a few years back. Your times should make you competitive for the regionals here, as well as most 135 charter ops. Although with no turbine time you might want to look at a 135 company that has pistons and turbines, get your foot in the door on the pistons and hang around until they let ya into a turbine. Most regionals though look more at Multi and PIC time as opposed to turbine, so no worries there. Your first problem will be getting your paperwork squared away, it is a long process so factor that into your plans. Took me about 6 months to get a temporary work permit and about 18 months to get the green card, even then as pilotyip mentioned some employers won't want the hassle of hiring a non-citizen so they will find some reason to not like you at the interview. It is actually illegal for them to discriminate but they can choose anything as the "reason" you didn't get the job. Having said that I just got hired at a good regional and they had no problem with my citizenship. I suggest you just try all the places that interest you anyway, just remember it is Mr Bush's sand box so you need to come to terms with accepting the new procedures for being a non citizen and play by his rules.
Can't believe you would leave the beautiful climate of the shetlands to go to Orlando!!!! Kidding. But good luck, as there is some hiring going on.

 

[Tinstaafl]

Thanks Mr P. Appreciate your comments.

 

[Indigo]

With your time you're definitely competitive for Part 135 charter. And there *are* companies that will consider you even though they have to put up with the extra red tape.

Good luck!

 

[Tinstaafl]

Thanks, Indigo.

It's interesting the differences in markets, expectations & typical experience between the different countries.

Australia:

1. Get CPL after min. 150 hours of dual & solo training on an approved course. Alternatively accrue 200 hours via 'ad-hoc' training at one or a number of flying schools (instructors in Oz must be under the supervision of a flying school ie no hanging out your shingle & away you go...)

2. Then two typical routes:

* Get an instructor rating, move up through the levels of instructor, get an instrument rating then move towards multi-engine air taxi at ~1000 - 1500 hrs TT.

* Go 'bush', do ~1000 hrs air taxi in C206 & C210s, get an instrument rating then move towards multis.

3. Gain Air Transport Pilot Licence (ATPL) once experience requirements are met (no separate flight test in Oz but then we have to renew the instrument rating each year via a flight test).

4. Start applying to Qantas at ~1500 hrs. Maybe get a turbo prop job in a regional at ~2000-3000 hrs.

At all stages the job market is *very* competite. Only the persistant survive.


UK (now under the Joint European Regulations)

1. Get CPL, instrument rating & ATPL theory aka 'Frozen ATPL'. Can be via an integrated course (150 hrs for CPL, 50 for IR & ~ 60,000 UK pounds) or ad-hoc (200 hrs CPL, 50 hrs IR & ~40,000). Add another 2000-3000 quid for a JAR bureaucratic piece of crap called a 'multi crew co-operation' course (MCC).

Some airlines offer full or partial sponsorship so if you are accepted then some or all of the cost is covered by them. Even better, if you do well then you get a right seat job straight from training. Could be TP or jet. Very competitive so can't rely on this option.

Even if no sponsorship deal it's still possible to get accepted into a right seat TP or jet position with an airline. The mob I work for have no minimum experience requirement (other than the so called 'Frozen ATPL' + MCC.

Otherwise get an instructor rating, accrue 500-1000 hrs & then get an airline position.

It's a common perception amongst the newly qualified that they'll tolerate a job on a TP as a starting point before moving to jets.

US:

My perception is that there seems to be lots of jobs within general aviation & commuter/regional however the experience requirements increase markedly as you move up the ladder from single engine freight to multi then TP air taxi/charter then commuter/regional until finally the majors?

If I was to condense all the waffle above:

UK: Lots of jet airlines (as a fraction of the industry), some amount of TP airlines, virtually no piston air taxi/charter. Cost of learning prohibitively expensive, forcing quite a few airlines to sponsor to meet their needs whilst also reducing the typical experience levels where people would move up the ladder to bigger/better/faster types.

Oz: Very, very few jet airlines, relatively few TP operators, lots of piston operators. Cost of learning quite affordable. End result is lots of low experience people in the job market, allowing relatively high minimum experience levels to be set by employers. Very rapid rapid drop in opportunity as you move up the ladder from piston to TP & jet.

USA: Lots of jet airlines or operators, lots of TP operators and lots of piston operators. Cost of learning quite affordable. End result is a relatively fast turnover of job vacancies at lower & mid levels as people move on, causing a tendency to low-ish experience requirements (esp. at the piston/TP end) moderated by large numbers of applicants giving employers the opportunity to demand somewhat higher experience requirements.

 

[Indigo]

End result is a relatively fast turnover of job vacancies at lower & mid levels as people move on, causing a tendency to low-ish experience requirements (esp. at the piston/TP end) moderated by large numbers of applicants giving employers the opportunity to demand somewhat higher experience requirements.

That assessment seems pretty correct to me! Of course, like all businesses, employers try to keep the experience level required/pay levels at a point where they can attract and keep people but still remain competitive. Also, experience levels are sometimes dictated by insurance, contracts or other factors.

I don't know anything personally about the UK or OZ, but I've heard that flying jobs are harder to come by in Europe and Canada.

Good luck!