Additional Class Rating

[minitour]

Hey there y'all...got a pickle about this class rating shtuff.

I'll be finishing up my C-SEL, CFII and CFI while I'm out here, then I'm headin on home to add on the C-MEL.

A few questions.
1. Anywhere I can pick up a relatively inexpensive Seneca I POH?

2. I'll only have about 190 hours when I head home to do this (141 student). I'm adding the ME on as either 61 or 141 (depending on which is least expensive). Am I going to have problems with the examiner (less than 250TT)?

3. Do I need to do the dual xc's again (the 100nm day/night) and the solo xc (the "300" nm one)? I had assumed that since I had a Commercial license and was just adding a class rating that all I'd need to do is the PTS stuff (takeoffs/landings/approaches/OEI work/steep turns/stalls/slow flight/emergency procedures), but the instructor I talked to seemed pretty sure I had to do the cross countries. I'm not really adverse to doing that since it's not going to be a "climb, cruise, approach, land, repeat" but more of a training (lose an engine, etc) flight...plus it's XC toward the ATP, but if I can do some of that in a 152 with students paying for it...all the better.

4. Anything cool you can tell me about the Seneca I? How does it handle on one engine? Any non-precision approach tips (as far as leveling off at MDA, etc)? Cool stories?

Thanks all.

-mini

 

[avbug]

Mini,

The Seneca 1 is a fairly gutless airplane, which makes it a great multi training airplane. It has no bad habits, it's honest, and you'll like it.

If you know where you'll be training, I'd go right to the place and ask to make a xerox copy of the entire AFM right from the aircraft. Leave them a first born child to ensure you'll bring it back, and run to Kinkos copies.

The examiner should have no beef at all with your time and experience; no minimum total experience level exists to obtain a multi rating. So long as you can fly the airpalne and meet the practical test standards, you're set.

If you've already obtained your commercial certificate and met all the requirements, you don't need to do them again. You need only receive training in the multi engine airplane and a recommendation to take the practical test. If you're wanting instrument privileges in the airplane, you'll need to demonstrate instrument proficiency during the checkride, including single engine approaches.

 

[nosehair]

61.63(c) Additional class rating. Must have an endorsement...bla,bla,bla. In other words, you have to demonstrate proficiency to the PTS standards for that clas rating. If you can do it in 1 hour, you can do it. Your CFI friend is confusing 61.129(b) which is the requirements for an INITIAL Commercial ride in a multi, which does list specific times such as x/c in a multi.

 

[minitour]

Avbug,
Thanks for the heads up on the Seneca...I might just have to see if they'll let me do that with the AFM. I'm sure I could probably learn what I need to know for the check ride by spending some extra time at the school (which I could do) and just reading and taking notes out of that one, but I like the Kinkos idea too.

Av and nose:
Thanks for the help with the training requirements.

I'll be needing the instrument privileges to carry over, so I know I'll be needing to do an approach or two so I can demonstrate ability there. Glad to hear I don't need the xc's (which is what I was thinking) and such. Hoping to get it done in around 10 hours (with the check ride if possible) so I can minimize my time left in "training mode"

Thanks again

-mini

 

[MTpilot]

It's more fun if you make engine noises!

Mini, If you can, just go out and sit in the seneca and chair fly that sucker to death, it seems a little silly but it will save you money. Watch the gear switch.

 

[minitour]

Mini, If you can, just go out and sit in the seneca and chair fly that sucker to death, it seems a little silly but it will save you money. Watch the gear switch.

I'll have to remember the engine noises thing

 

[JAFI]

As I recall, the Seneca 1 you had to watch the aft CG when you loaded the aircraft up. We would limit the aircraft to only 5 people and not fill the 6th seat. But I could be mistaken, (it has been a while) you may want to check on that.

In multi training you always, always, always confirm the dead engine prior to shutting any fuel off. It can get real quiet, real quick. In a light twin you may not be able to:

climb or maintain altitude on one engine,
unfeather a prop (some times they just won't do it)
climb after desending single engine below 500 ft AGL (Always assume you will have to land below 500 feet)
Any one watching in the back is dead weight if you can't get the "dead" engine restarted.

Other than that it is a lot of fun...

JAFI

 

[MTpilot]

I had a student yank both mixtures once, talk about quiet.

 

[Lead Sled]

In multi training you always, always, always confirm the dead engine prior to shutting any fuel off. It can get real quiet, real quick. In a light twin you may not be able to:
climb or maintain altitude on one engine,
unfeather a prop (some times they just won't do it)
climb after desending single engine below 500 ft AGL (Always assume you will have to land below 500 feet)
Any one watching in the back is dead weight if you can't get the "dead" engine restarted.

I'm not a mechanic and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I fully expect some some of you guys who are or did...

Back in my multi-instructing days I attempted to feather the prop on one of the twins I was flying. It wouldn't - it continued to windmill. We started the engine back up and returned to the airport. When I talked to the mechanic about it he said that it really wasn't all that unusual. They ran the engine up on the ground and tried to feather it and sure enough it wouldn't do it. After that experience, I checked the feathering capability of each prop on the twins I was flying at the time - a C340 and a C421. The 340 also had a prop that wouldn't feather. It was pretty sobering to realize what would have happened if I actually had lost the engine that wouldn't go into feather in one of those airplanes. Piston twins have two engines because they need two engines.

Lesson to be learned? Never assume that something as basic to your survival as the feathering of a propellor is always going to happen as advertised. It pays to ask questions of a knowledgable mechanic.

'Sled

 

[Lead Sled]

In multi training you always, always, always confirm the dead engine prior to shutting any fuel off. It can get real quiet, real quick

In the good old days, it was very common (the FAA encouraged it) for instructors and examiners to pull the mixture or cut fuel right after liftoff and the accident rates reflected what often resulted.

I took my multi-engine checkride in an Aztec. The examiner was one of those guys who liked to shut off the fuel. When the time came to fail an engine he diverted my attention and reached down to the fuel levers between the seats. Thinking that he had his hand on the LH fuel lever, he shut off the fuel to the RH engine. Moments later, when the RH engine quit, I correctly went through the entire engine failure drill - including feathering the RH propellor. A few moments after the RH engine quit windmilling I witnessed, for the first time, a person (my examiner) having a combination stroke and heart attack - in his mind he had shut off the fuel to the left engine and I had just shutdown and feathered the right engine. Not a good position to be in at pattern altitude. You've never seen a guy start to sweat so profusely. Once he realized what he had done he settled back down and the rest of the checkride was pretty mellow.

For what it's worth, light-twin engine failures in the "real world" aren't anything like the carefully choreographed training exercises that most of you are familiar with. You all be careful ya hear.

'Sled