AC upgrade times in the Guard?

[hindsight2020]

Hi folks,

I was doing some diggin' regarding upgrade time to aircraft commander while flying heavies for the Guard. Particularly -130 upgrade times. So far I've found one must have 1000tt/800herc to be eligible.

Since AD flying and Guard flying can be different, I was wondering if anybody can ballpark how many years would it take a Guard co-pilot to upgrade to aircraft commander? I'm sure it would depend on how much action you can pick up at your unit, but anybody with some intel on that one, particularly Herc folks, would be appreciated.


Happy flying folks

 

[slacker]

Upgrading

Things are different now. It used to be 800paa/1000tt to upgrade to the left seat in the C-130. In the Reserves, that generally took 2 years. You might get the hours faster, but 2 years seemed like the magic number that management felt comfortable with upgrading you. Now, if you deploy often, you'll rack up hours and experience quickly. Also, you come out of Little Rock qualified in both seats (at least in the J model). You can't be the A/C yet but you can fly in the left seat. I think the time to upgrade now is 700paa/900tt, but it will be at the discretion of your commander because your already qualified in the left seat, you just need a aircraft commander certification. Clear as mud?

Fly all you can, gain experience, and you'll upgrade in about 2 years give or take a few months.

 

[baq]

hindsight2020,

AC upgrade can occur after you meet both "published" USAF mins and any "unit specific" mins. Best to check with the squadron your applying with to see if they require additional time. The amount of flying you get will depend on many factors too. Best to check with pilots at that unit to see how much flying they average. Having said that, when flying CONUS missions from home station, I average 25-30/hours per month.

Best Wishes,
baq

 

[Foties]

130 Upgrade

Slacker said it pretty good. I uprgraded with 800 paa and it did take about 2 years. I have seen some co pilots in my unit hang around for up to 5 years before the upgrade. It is all up to you as far as I am concerned. These guys that took so long were great idiots.Compared to AD. I upgraded faster than all of my AD buddied from UPT except the C-21 guys. Their mission is much less complex and I believe that may be one factor for the less restrictive time reqs.

I am assuming you are weighing when can you start building PIC time. Keep in mind when you upgrade so young in rank (Old 1 LT or newCapt.) The only time you will get to sign for the jet is when you fly with a guy of less rank than you. I have been an MP since last August and have not signed for the jet much because I would have to fly with only a 1LT or less to get the A Code. Good Luck and just go for it. You will experience things you'll never imagine and civie flying can't even hold a match to. Later.

 

[hindsight2020]

Excellent feedback folks,

That cleared all my questions right up. I have been in the process of applying to Guard slots for about a year and a half now, and as of lately the Herc bug kinda caught me, it just seems like a hell of a mission (the versatility thing is what is catching my eyes lately), and the pilots I've been able to interact with are no-nonsense and down-to-earth so far. Not to mention the Herc itself!

My question about upgrade was more motivated by wanting to have a better understanding of the upgrade process, once again, you folks drew it in crayons for me, much appreciated. I consider myself a motivated individual, and AC upgrade will certainly be my goal once I become seasoned with whatever unit I may get sponsored by. I completely buy that it would be up to me, and a two years +/- some months is a realistic goal.

Thanks for the info. We'll see how this year turns up selection wise.

hindsight

PD. Bitchin' avatars btw

 

[psysicx]

How many hours is it possible to fly a year.I know a C-5 guy who is on AD order at his unit and is flying 700 to 800 hrs a year.And I know the C-17 bums are getting close to that a year.

 

[pkober]

It's all unit specific. The ANG/AFRES sends a much higher quality candidate to AC school than the AD. Usually the ANG candidates have more Herc time plus civilian time when they get to AC school. The AD generally min times there candidates and it shows. If they can find a warm body with the required time, then that person goes.

You also have to factor in whats going on in your life at the time. Going to a school in the ANG is voluntary. It took me five years to upgrade but I also had an airline job for four of those five years. I also recently completed IP school. It took me 9 1/2 years to make it that far. Most of my AD counter parts are getting to IP school in about four years.

Either way, the ANG/AFRES is the way to go.

Good Luck

CLAMBAKE

 

[JungleJett]

Slacker said it pretty good. I uprgraded with 800 paa and it did take about 2 years. I have seen some co pilots in my unit hang around for up to 5 years before the upgrade. It is all up to you as far as I am concerned. These guys that took so long were great idiots.Compared to AD. I upgraded faster than all of my AD buddied from UPT except the C-21 guys. Their mission is much less complex and I believe that may be one factor for the less restrictive time reqs.

I am assuming you are weighing when can you start building PIC time. Keep in mind when you upgrade so young in rank (Old 1 LT or newCapt.) The only time you will get to sign for the jet is when you fly with a guy of less rank than you. I have been an MP since last August and have not signed for the jet much because I would have to fly with only a 1LT or less to get the A Code. Good Luck and just go for it. You will experience things you'll never imagine and civie flying can't even hold a match to. Later.

Wow..that is just not right. I have seen tons of Captains in the left seat while a Major or LTC (I have even seen a Col over there) is throwing their gear..and the Capt. had the A code. I was on a mission into Afghanistan on a mission where a Captain brand new AC had the A code.

I guess it depends on the unit?? Man..that is just not right!

 

[NTS ALL 4]

Wow..that is just not right. I have seen tons of Captains in the left seat while a Major or LTC (I have even seen a Col over there) is throwing their gear..and the Capt. had the A code. I was on a mission into Afghanistan on a mission where a Captain brand new AC had the A code.

I guess it depends on the unit?? Man..that is just not right!

Most of the time the AGR's/ART's don't care who has the A code on the orders, most of them have a ton of PIC time. Just ask if you can have the A code, they probably won't care. You'll never know if you don't ask the question. If you are not getting the A code enough, talk to the pilot scheduler. Bearing gifts of their favorite beverage helps, too!

 

[slacker]

A code not a problem

I've gone on many trip with Maj and Lt Cols where I as a Capt have the A code. Most of those guys already are set with tons of PIC time and airline jobs so our scheduler helps out the young ACs whenever he can. Heck, most of them don't want the A code due to the headaches anyway. Make sure you take care of the scheduler and he'll take care of you i.e take the bad deals when no one else will and he'll reciprocate with the good deals. (spoken as a former scheduler)

 

[coho92]

With us, it's usually the last guy to sign up for the trip that gets the A code if everyone is MP qualled. Who wants the hassle of dealing with TACC/Stage/etc. it is much better to sit back, gripe about all of their decesions and spend the extra time before the flight on the phone or checking email rather than mission planning.

Just my two cents

 

[Foties]

Anal about the A Code

Maybe some ailrines are going to get smart about this A code thing, but from a few buddies I have in the unit, hiring depts are not concerned with a log book indicating every time you had the A code.

One buddy (A Fed Ex Newbie) used 90% of his flight time from the date he took his MP check.

Another buddy (A UPS Newbie) used all of his time from the day he took the MP check.

Both companies where accepting of their times as PIC. I am not saying lie, but I think it is not neccessary to get crazy about getting the A code even though you are a CAPT flying with a Lt. Col. The militarty records doesn't track A code time anyway.

PS. It looks like my unit local policy of the higher ranking gets the A code is BS though. Late.

 

[hindsight2020]

Things are different now. .....

..... Also, you come out of Little Rock qualified in both seats (at least in the J model). You can't be the A/C yet but you can fly in the left seat. I think the time to upgrade now is 700paa/900tt, but it will be at the discretion of your commander because your already qualified in the left seat, you just need a aircraft commander certification. Clear as mud?

Fly all you can, gain experience, and you'll upgrade in about 2 years give or take a few months.

I continued to research it, and you are correct, now one does come out of Little Rock qualified in the left seat. The course used to be called CIQ (Co-pilot Initial Qualification) but that is no more apparently. The UPT dudes go into PIQ and most of the flying is done on the left seat. If this is true, then it's awesome news.

What I'm wondering is what it means flying-wise. Are your co-pilot duties, and what you're able to do in the plane, expanded? Does this mitigate the need to go to AC school since one is qualified to fly left seat? I don't know what kind of training AC school entails, but if it's a matter of flying from the left side, PIQ would have taken care of that. I'm sure there's more to it, I'm in the dark on that area. Just wondering if this new qualification course changes the landscape...?¿

 

[Foties]

It does change the landscape

Bud,

We got 2 guys newly back from the Rock left seat qual right out of UPT. It's very interesting to say the least. They can do almost anything an AC is allowed to do. They can fly drops, do assaults, and most things at the discretion of the AC in the right seat. According to AFI112c-130V1 they still have to fly a minimum hourly requirement and then meet a cert board to get AC cetified when their unit deems them ready. When they get back fromthe Rock they basically carry a training folder around for 2 years or so and they have a certain syllabus they still need to abide by and have an instructor fill out every once in a while. That's all I really know. Have a good one.
40's

 

[pkober]

The PIQ , flight pilot, pilot cannot fly as an AC until he is AC qualified. He can fly with a qualified AC in the right seat for certain missions. Even though he is in the left seat he is not "A" coded. I don't believe he can do left seat assualts until he is a qualified AC (I could be wrong on the assualts).

Here's a question.

You have a flight pilot in the left seat and a regular AC in the right seat. On landing you get a hung prop and depart the runway. Since the right seat guy doesn't have the tiller wheel to help maintain control he can't do much during that situation. Any AC, in his right mind, will assume control of the aircraft during an emergency. The AC is responsible and his career is on the line. Do you let the flight pilot handle the EP and roll the dice that everything works out. If it does you're lucky. If it doesn't the first question asked will be "Why didn't you take command?". Typical military Monday morning quaterbacking.

This is just one situation of many.

I'm not trying to rag on the flight pilot guys. This is just the program they were thrown into, but it's probable that this program was not thought out. Right now the way the reg is written it says that the flight pilot must upgrade within a certain amount of time. The time is pretty close to when most active duty guys upgrade anyway. But what about the ANG? There is currently no ANG waiver. Hopefully it will come soon.

I hope the program does work in the end. Going back to the Rock just to learn to fly from the left seat is truly a painfull process. Especially for a Guardsman or Resevist.

CLAMBAKE